[exerciseguy]

Danny,

As I understand it, you are designing the new X-Series speakers from AV123.

I've been waiting to read more about the X-LS SUPER WAVE GUIDE, and since you probably can't speak of specifics, perhaps you can explain how a Wave Guide, super or not, differs from a horn design.

On a side note, have you, or anyone here, had the opportunity to listen to the current CLS line of speakers from (are you sitting down?) Cerwin-Vega!? this line was designed by someone named Bill Bush, formally of NHT. The CLS use a Wave Guided Tweeter that I imagine is similar, in concept at least, to the upcoming X-LS. Am I wrong?

[Danny Richie]

Yep, it is in the works. We are waiting the development of the tweeter and have a couple of companies working on it.

I've been waiting to read more about the X-LS SUPER WAVE GUIDE, and since you probably can't speak of specifics, perhaps you can explain how a Wave Guide, super or not, differs from a horn design.

I think the "super" part has more to do with marketing than anything related to the wave guide itself. 

Go here and read some info on wave guides: http://www.4sptech.com/version2/waveguides.html

On a side note, have you, or anyone here, had the opportunity to listen to the current CLS line of speakers from (are you sitting down?) Cerwin-Vega!? this line was designed by someone named Bill Bush, formally of NHT. The CLS use a Wave Guided Tweeter that I imagine is similar, in concept at least, to the upcoming X-LS. Am I wrong?

That looks more like a horn loaded compression driver. That is something completely different.

[exerciseguy]

From C-V!:

Proprietary Integrated Midrange and Tweeter Waveguide

"Computer optimized waveguide provides high sensitivity and dynamics with extremely low distortion. The geometry of the waveguides results in near perfect integration of the midrange and tweeter for seamless midrange and highs."

Is it a matter of opinion, or are they trying to pull a fast one?

Danny, have you ever heard of Bill Bush?

[Danny Richie]

Looks like marketing hype to me.

Danny, have you ever heard of Bill Bush?

No.

[exerciseguy]

I thought I had read that the new x-series tweeters had been ordered in December, or thereabout?

Would it be presumptuous to assume that the X-LS Wave Guide will resemble the SP Tech's?

[Danny Richie]

I thought I had read that the new x-series tweeters had been ordered in December, or thereabout?

That sounds about right. First they have to machine a sample into something. Then test its response. Then make another one, reshaping it from the last. Then test its response. Then make another one... Test it...

Once it has been finalized then tooling must be made to form the production units...

One company is machining samples into Aluminum.

It's a long process.

Would it be presumptuous to assume that the X-LS Wave Guide will resemble the SP Tech's?

It will be similar but less aggressive and not as deep. Theirs are 8" in diameter. We are working on a 6" version.

I am shooting for a crossover point in the 1,500Hz range or less.

[Aether Audio]

Danny,

That looks more like a horn loaded compression driver. That is something completely different.

Nope.  They say its a soft dome tweeter.  Can't use a soft dome in a compression driver - won't work.  But...did you look at the depth of that thing?  They must have unloaded it fast, right below 10KHz, just to get it to work at all.  Otherwise...the ol' H.F. null.  No matter what, with the kind of gain that thing must be generating at the low end, it's going to be resonant.  I don't care how they've terminated the mouth, the throat depth dominates the resonance issue and that sucker is deep.  Did I just hear a car honk or was that the new C-V waveguide.

PS.  Your stuff is packed and going to UPS tomorrow.  The little "project" is tucked in there with the other stuff too.  Oh, and tell Gary to give me a call.

-Bob

[brj]

Oh, and tell Gary to give me a call.

Ordering some 280W monobloc tube amps, Bob?

[Aether Audio]

Brian,

Well...not right at the moment.  Rumor has it that I would probably like to though.  Maybe down the road.  Right now were going to see if we can't help Gary with a little "wood" problem he's been having.  OK wise guys...the kind that comes from trees!

-Bob

[exerciseguy]

Danny,

That looks more like a horn loaded compression driver. That is something completely different.

Nope.  They say its a soft dome tweeter.  Can't use a soft dome in a compression driver - won't work.  But...did you look at the depth of that thing?  They must have unloaded it fast, right below 10KHz, just to get it to work at all.  Otherwise...the ol' H.F. null.  No matter what, with the kind of gain that thing must be generating at the low end, it's going to be resonant.  I don't care how they've terminated the mouth, the throat depth dominates the resonance issue and that sucker is deep.  Did I just hear a car honk or was that the new C-V waveguide.

PS.  Your stuff is packed and going to UPS tomorrow.  The little "project" is tucked in there with the other stuff too.  Oh, and tell Gary to give me a call.

-Bob

I found this discussion of the C-V!s on Klipsch's site http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/652575.aspx

...Danny, now that you've perfected the Insignia Mod, can I interest you in a pair of C-V!s? You can call them the poor mans Klipschorns.

[exerciseguy]

In trying find out what the heck a Tractrix horn is I came across this interesting read too http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/manufacture/whyhorns.htm

[PaulHilgeman]

On a side note, have you, or anyone here, had the opportunity to listen to the current CLS line of speakers from (are you sitting down?) Cerwin-Vega!? this line was designed by someone named Bill Bush, formally of NHT. The CLS use a Wave Guided Tweeter that I imagine is similar, in concept at least, to the upcoming X-LS. Am I wrong?

Since I have a *slight* interest in the subject as well:


THAT IS NOT A WAVEGUIDE.  Wow, I can't believe what the marketing geniuses will dream up these days.  From the vertical perspective, that is something beyond a horn.  Not sure what it would be called, but maybe a cannon.  From the horizontal perspective, it is a horn, not a waveguide.  Combine the two, and the dispersion patterns have got to be crazy.

-Paul

[exerciseguy]

Other than the marketing aspect, can there be a beneficial purpose in designing this wave/horn thing the way they did? Is it possible in your estimation that after all is said & done the thing actually sounds good?

Does a wave guide have to be symmetrical in shape (i.e. round/funnel shaped)?

Doesn't Klipsch, and more recently HSU, use a similar wave/horn as C-V! in their designs?

[Milehighguy]

Some say that Dr. Earl Geddes is the #1 authority on waveguides. You can get his book on his website here; http://www.gedlee.com/Audio_trans.htm

[PaulHilgeman]

Other than the marketing aspect, can there be a beneficial purpose in designing this wave/horn thing the way they did? Is it possible in your estimation that after all is said & done the thing actually sounds good?

Does a wave guide have to be symmetrical in shape (i.e. round/funnel shaped)?

Doesn't Klipsch, and more recently HSU, use a similar wave/horn as C-V! in their designs?

Since no one else is answering, I will try my best at being as open minded as possible .

There are benefits to doing a horn like that.  The amount of gain created by the horn will be very high across some limited bandwidth and angle, therefore the driver/horn combo will be VERY sensitive.  Also, the excursion required to create the SPL will be reduced, reducing strain on the driver.

Now I get to be closed minded: this is like marketing an car with one extremely wide front wheel, and one extremely wide rear wheel, and claiming it has unbelievable traction, but ignoring the fact that it cant steer worth crap and the acceleration stinks because there is 1000lbs of rubber that needs to be turned.

-Paul

[exerciseguy]

Thanks for your time Paul,

Do you see a fundamental difference between a speaker like the Klipsch Heresy http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/heresy-iii.aspx and a speaker like the Cerwin-Vega! CLS-12 http://www.cerwinvega.com/CLS12.php? If their design approach is fundamentally the same, and they're legions of Klipsch Heresy fans out there, is it possible that the C-V! CLS line might appeal to someone who enjoys what it is the Heresy's have to offer?

[PaulHilgeman]

Certainly possible, but from the vertical perspective that horn looks about 3x narrower than the Klipsch horn on the Heresy tweeter.  I would estimate that the Klipsch horn is about a 60 degree vertical, and 100 degree horizontal horn, THe CLS looks like a slot in comparison.  If the dome in this picture is 1" in diameter, then the mouth has to be what, 3" tall?  and deeper than the Klipsch horn:

http://johan82.prisjakt.nu/Cerwin/clsc215-stor.jpg


So, from this we are looking at a 20-30 degree vertical horn and a wider horizontal coverage.  Just seems really odd.

I am sure it prevents quite a bit of ceiling interaction!!!

Re-reading your post.  Yes, they are totally different, and there is no way that you could say if you like the Heresy you will like the CLS12.  Even if they looked the same, and used the same drivers, you could not say this.

[exerciseguy]

Thanks again Paul,

To be entirely accurate, I did say "might" like, might the two speakers have a similar appeal.

Not to beat a dead horse, but why do you suppose a company with the experience of C-V! (they've not a great, or even good, reputation with audiophiles, but they have been around for quite a while) would design such an odd tweeter horn/guide thing? Can you see such a design having some sort of practical purpose in pro designs (i.e. concert or arena), since that would seem to be their forte?