[gooberdude]

Not to get too OT, but Lcrim, can you recomend some good (or popular) low compliance cartridges??   A good friend just bought an early 80's micro seiki DQ3 table with 12" MA707 arm.   From what i've read, this set-up requires a low compliance cartridge.   He just received the $190 cambridge audio phono stage - which sounds just amazing thus far - but i doubt he'll be able to use a LOMC.

the tt came with a Shure v15 mark IV...looks pretty old but the stylus seems OK.  I can see him searching for a new cartridge aroudn Christmas time though.   

Also, i might look for an older Micro Seiki DD TT at some point, i'm really impressed with the performance & low price of ownership.

[lcrim]

Gooberdude:
I am not familiar with that tonearm or turntable but I did some research online and found this url w/ regard to the tonearm
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3166&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10&sid=a4da8849644f3f65a61613c6fadf445e 
About halfway down the page, it mentions a letter from the seller that states:
the effective mass of your tonearm tube is about 7-8 gramms. it is
made of an aluminium alloy tube. without slider, which gives you the
possibility of a changeable effective mass, you do have more or less
only the possibility to use cartridges with an dynamic compliance
much higher than 20. even better would be some 30.
this compliance you will find only with MM pick ups. Shure, some AT,
some Goldring (i think "elite") and the one or the other Grado.
if you can get hold of the slider and the steelrod you will be able
to use also heavier pickups and - of course - MC pick ups with almost
any low compliance.
I found out the Shure V15 has a compliance of 28 cu without the brush employed, so tonight I will try and flip the brush up and ease up on the VTF 0.5 grams.
I am surprised by the Micro MA 707 mass data, didnt expect it to be so low...

While they are using a different version of the V15, I don't think that this arm would be very good w/ a low compliance cartridge unless you have the "slider and rod" to alter the effective mass

[richidoo]

Jeepers, you guys know a lot about vinyl. It is a more arcane craft than digital, that's for sure...  I got some learning to do to avoid first-time purchase mistakes. Any websites to get me up to speed quickly - with articles, pictures, good advice for analog on a budget? I will drive you crazy with questions.

TCG, good advice about the carts, both at 150 is less than most well recognized brand high end carts.

But what about a table? Thanks WEEZ, for gently hinting indirectly that my 3lb. plastic Technics, even though it is "Quartz"  with steel tonearm is apparently not gonna cut it, and I agree. It is mid-fi. The slightest vibration in the room comes right through, and with the Shure 97 the sound is nothing special, not worth seeking out new records to play, or even playing the records I already have. But what about putting on a good sounding forgiving cart like the 440ML and some isoblocks underneath? Worth the effort or just get a better foundation?

Rega, Pro-ject get rave reviews for cheap tables, my good friend is a SOTA dealer, but what is out there used? Not a lot of used phono stuff around that I could find in 5 minute search in the obvious places.

Is it wise to buy something cheap like a P1, or better to get a used Scout, Comet or something more substantial that I can work with? I'm not afraid of learning and working at it and buying something decent (reasonable) as long as I can get used records and enjoy the sound.
Thanks
Rich

[WEEZ]

Hi Rich,

If I were you, I'd establish a budget you can live with. Maybe start out by putting a 440MLa on your Technics...that'll cost ya' a hundred bucks. If you like it, you can go from there. (don't forget clean records!). Then, start a new thread....

WEEZ

[gooberdude]

Thanks lcrim!!    extremely helpful.  His table/arm did not come with that slider weight, but i've been on the hunt for one.  Luckily the old V15 that's installed sounds great.  I have printed out your post and will pass it along.  Vinyl Engine is a fantastic site & the only site where i found info on that arm.   The DQ3 must've been a budget TT at the time.  not too shabby though. It weighs about 25 lbs & is dead quiet...incredible bass performance.  If that is the drive that Direct Drive proponents talk about, it is inviting for sure.

Rich, i have the Pro-Ject Expression and listened to most of the new budget belt drive TT's before buying it.  Its a tweaker's delight, but i've spent about $600-$700 on aftermarket goodies, and hundreds of hrs of tweaking and contemplating, to make it sound right.  In other words, try and get a nice TT even if its used, would be my newbie recomendation.   My guess is any of the lower end Rega, MMF, Pro-Ject, Goldring, etc would suffer from similar afflictions.

At this point i own an extreme & highly polished turd.  still a turd though!   There is something too the lightweight & rigid tables...but it takes $, time & creativity to find the magic with these IME.  

[richidoo]

Thanks guys, will do.

[TheChairGuy]

Rich - vinyl begats loads of questions as it is indeed arcane - don't be shy with them 

Before my return to vinyl 2 years ago, after a few years away and more miserable with music than ever in my adult life,  I didn't know that much about turntables, cartridges, vinyl, etc. I knew a little from having tinkered with vinyl for 20+ years....but not enough.

The internet and forums like the Vinyl Circle have been amazingly helpful for all of us to cobble all of the little tidbits of information found and experienced and relate them to others.  There's nothing that any of us are doing that hasn't been done in the past when the turntable was the only hi-resolution source in audio.....it's just a matter of gathering it all up in one place to explore again. 

Or, for younger guys that didn't originally live thru the era, learn bunches of things at once to enhance your experience.

It's a lot to take in in one rush - but very worthwhile if you love music truest to reality.  It's so inconvenient us vinyl-heads never will be but a small minority of the population...but we'll often be the most happily engaged to the music 

[Wayner]

I have to admit  I have been ing over the VPI Scout. It is more money than I want to spend, but maybe one Friday night with one too many beers to know better, I might order one. Is this a level for someone to start in? It seems wrong. Pain and suffering must be felt agonizing over a stubborn table and cartridge that just wont co-operate. This is how things are learned; when things go wrong and you have to figure out how to right the wrongs. The total accumlated knowledge of people here at AC may total into the thousands of years. Think about that as a resource! Think of all the tricks and techniques, let alone the LP collections!

We all have learned things through the years foolin' around with various tables and tyring different tweaks. Some worked..kind of, others sucked so bad....well, that's how it goes. I like WEEZ's idea. Just get the AT and start listening. If it sucks, try to figure out why. You may decide the table sucks. Go get a different one. Maybe a Music Hall MMF-5 or a REGA 2 or try *bay.....but beware, you may have to learn how to fix stuff real quick.

[richidoo]

Thanks Wayner, all good advice. What do you use for regular line preamp? I know you have a (AVA) T8 for phono pre, but do you use that for your main line control too? Thanks

PS: The new TAS is out now, has reviews of Shure M97Xe and Grado Prestige Gold, plus a bunch of others. 2 issues in a row dedicated to analog. No T8 review though
Rich

[Wayner]

Other than the T8, I have the OmegaStar solid state that has phono inputs and buffered tape outputs. 

The OmegaStar is a fine pre that I listen to everyday. I save the T8 for weekends. Not that there is anything to "save" on the T8.

[Rocket]

Hi,

Back to the comparison between the the shure m97xe vs at -440ml Tnt Audio has just posted a review of the cartridge.  Apparently there was another review quoted and they shure had previously been compared to the at 440ml and the reviewer thought they scored similiar.

[/May 05's LP Magazin, a German publication, tested 9 moving magnets employing Scheu Premier/SME3009i, Thorens TD160/RB250, and JVC QL-A7 turntables, Lehmann Black Cube phonostage, and DIY loudspeakers. The Shure ends up high on the list, leaving the top place to the Goldring 1006, scoring equal to the Audio Technica AT440ML and Clearaudio Aurum Classics (!), and bettering the Grado Silver, Ortofon Vinylmaster Red, and by a large amount the Rega Super Bias, Stanton 680 HiFi, and Sumiko Oyster. The listening comments describe the 97's qualities as relaxed, round and homogeneous, with superior detail retrieval (what were they sniffing?), and with deep rather than wide imaging.
quote]

Here is the link to the tnt audio review:  http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/shure_m97xe_e.html

Regards

Rod

[TheChairGuy]

That's an abysmal frequency response.....no treble to speak of after 10K...and begins it's drop at 2K 

One of vinyl's allures is a more natural, and extended treble than CD....most CDP's would be far better to listen to then the Shure M97XE.

I'm pretty Shure about that 

[cytocycle]

get the at-440mla .. the sure is a waste of time and money unless you have an overly bright system...

[richidoo]

Sensible Sound magazine (May issue, but I bought it yesterday at Borders) has review of some cartridges. Shure V15, AT 440MLa, AT 150, Stanton. I am novice, but I found it useful. He liked the AT 150 best.

I was surprised to see such low channel separation specs, like 20-30dB. Plenty for enjoying music, but not close to tape or CD which don't share a cantilever

Favorable review of Technics 1200SL table too.

[TheChairGuy]

The 'magic' of vinyl, if you will, is surely not due to dynamic range, signal-to-noise figures, tracking distortion, convenience or stereo separation.  If meaningful measurements were the only doorway to better sonics....surely, everyone would be listening exclusively to CD.

Despite these inferior specs, the old record just captures more of the lifelike ability to portray music honestly.  The debate on this thing goes back and forth - but I really think it just boils down to that 44,100 samples per second is not sufficient to capture music sequentially. It sounds false because you hear those gaps...and can't fill in the blanks in your mind. All the efforts towards reduced jitter, higher playback sampling rates, move to hard drive as source - can't overcome the basic shortcoming....not enough sequentially recorded music on the master to begin with.  As you move up the frequency scale into the higher ranges - what's lacking is most noticeable. So, the worst CD performance will be in the treble range.

Vinyl, beset by it's own set of issues, has more lifelike performance due mostly to it's superior treble  Using a cartridge like the Shure M97XE, without a hope of flat even performance out to 20khz - you don't have a prayer of enjoying the one area of performance that vinyl excels at relative to CD. 

A cartridge needs to have relatively flat frequency response out to 20khz....or better, if possible in the cartridge design, as you can feel musical cues out further than that.  Probably a cartridge that has meaningful output out to 40khz is in many ways, a winner.  Most, but not all MM/MI's cannot, but most moving coils can.  But, using the Shure - you don't even get the basics right.

At under $100, the AT440MLa or one of several Grado's seems to be the ticket. The Grado's, due to lower inductance, will have more extended treble response into the ultrasonic range over the AT.  But, there are other issues to consider, too.   

[Wayner]

That review is from May, 2005. It is not a review of the current Audio Technica AT440MLa. I believe there is an improvement between the current model and it's predecessor.

W