[mr_bill]

Check out this link.  Very interesting reading.

Makes you wonder.  Phil has a great system to do comparisons it looks like.  Maybe digital differences are so small that it's not worth bothering?

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35068

I''d like to hear from others.  Report your findings. 

My take with the SB3 is that using it as a transport into my Benchmark DAC is about the same as using my Sony DVP 7000 as a transport into my Benchmarck DAC.

The digital out of the SB3 does sound better to me than the analog outs of the SB3.  Clearer and bigger soundstage and more open.  Differences not huge but there and this is with my SB3/Benchmark directly into my Theta amp and speakers, using the digital volume control in the SB3.  I have the latest DAC1, purchased in December. 

As a side note:  The new DAC1's don't sound bright at all.  Just very accurate and neutral.  Has anyone else experienced this?  I don't know where the bright DAC1 comments orignated from but maybe it was from earlier versions of the DAC1.

Bill

[JoshK]

I've heard the bright comments before, but those were all older versions as far as I've read.  I've heard some mention that the newer ones are less bright, but I haven't read anyone who objected to the earlier versions relisten to the newer. 

But it really doesn't matter, does it?  We read a lot of people's comments to try to get an idea of what is good and whether there are significantly better products out there, but ultimately these all depend on your system and your taste.  So if you like what you have then you shouldn't really listen to these comments, as they might change their mind in your system, or their taste might be dramatically different than yours.   I know it sows the seed of doubt, but time and experience will teach you the hard way or the easy way, that this may not matter.  Hopefully you didn't shell out big bucks to learn it. 

Point is, learn to trust your own ears and persue what you like. Take other's experience as a helpful guide, but not the arbitrator of good sound. 

[denjo]

My experience is that the digital out of the SB3 sounds much better than the analogs out. Much will depend on the quality of your DAC. The better the DAc, the bigger the differences. With my Altmann Attraction DAC (JISCO function "on"), not only is the sound louder, the soundstage and detail retrieval is significantly better than standalone analog out.

[samplesj]

I definately agree.  I was running a DAC1 with my SB3 for quite a while and to me it was much better with digital to the dac vs analog.

As far as the brightness, I'm not sure I'd call the DAC1 bright, but I probably wouldn't object if someone called it sterile.  I recently changed a lot of stuff in my system around to get back some to me much needed body.

My HagTech Chime does everything the benchmark did, AND its got so much more body.  So in a sense you could say the DAC1 is brighter I guess?

[Double Ugly]

Check out this link.  Very interesting reading.

Makes you wonder.  Maybe digital differences are so small that it's not worth bothering?

IME, a stock SB (and I suspect, stock Transporter) is akin to a nice, relatively inexpensive CDP.  It will produce decent music for what it is, but it isn't going to 'wow' too many people if a pair of relatively revealing speakers are downstream.

I've owned two Squeezeboxes and one Transporter.  I've never heard an unmodified Transporter, but I've heard Squeezeboxes in my system that varied from bone stock to ultra-modified.  The difference between a stock SB and a top-of-the-line Bolder SB is anything but small, and after being stunned by the improvements wrought by connecting my source (was a modified SB, now a modified Transporter) directly to my amps, I doubt I'll ever go back to an external DAC.

It all depends on what you want and where you want to put your money.  IMO, a highly-modified SB or Transporter is as good a digital platform as I've ever heard, but some would rather pay for an external DAC and digital cable than put the money towards modifications.  I tried that, too, and was fairly happy for a while, but I'm sure glad the search for something better took me to Bolder Cable.

-Jim

[yooper]

Jim,

Who modded your Transporter?  I may be interested in having mods done to my Transporter as well.  I do check Bolder Cables website from time to time, and still don't see any info.

On another note, and IMHO, the difference in sound from my Transporter and my ($600.00) Mac Mini, is subtle at best.  And yes, all file are lossless.  For the record, I am using Salk HT3's, and do run them full range while the Tranporter is run analog via a balanced XLR connection.

I do like the Transporter, but not $1400.00 more than the Mac Mini.  However, I kept it for other reasons.

Mark

[Double Ugly]

You have e-mail, Mark. 

-Jim

[1000a]

Hmm I would love to get the digital out work done by Wayne but I am not ready to let my SB3 go away more than say 3 days, had it about a month love the thing currently thru a Birdland DAC (and its arrival has gotten me going to town on DIY improvements IMS so I am not sensing any weaknesses I must fix now w the stock digital out).  Have been pondering doing the whole job w the analoge but its a tuff call for me, I rather like
watching and hearing about the new DACs comming out and I am eyeing with great anticipation The Promitheus Tube DAC, it is available but nobody has recieved theirs to start the feed back loop.

This particular DAC about 700-750, uses transformers in its design as does Audio Note and a few others  but nobody does anywhere near those $$.  His DAC without a tube that also uses transformers in its design is currently offered at 340. + shipping.  At those numbers with Nicks talent I can not wait to hear feedback from the early users, so I can place an order.  The non tube DAC is not much more than Waynes analoge upgrade.
.
With the SB4 and 5 eventually showing up theres no telling, "what Wayne might do" with the nxt gen of SBs.  I am surprised he has not offered anything on the Transporter, probably just swamped. 

That is if Logitec does not screw the whole thing up and make the SB sound like an 8 track, I X my fingers big companies love to dummy down product and profit up.  And with people high on Ipods we are in a very small circle indeed.

[mr_bill]

Who needs a Transporter if the SB3 sounds the same?
See link above. 
One of my reasons for posting is I found this thread very interesting and to hear comments regarding this pair either both analogue out or both digital out, it seems they compared equally and I find that curious and honor what the listeners in the thread heard.

[Double Ugly]

Who needs a Transporter if the SB3 sounds the same?
See link above. 

I'd say none unless one plans to have it modified.  I suppose some like the appearance better and don't mind paying the extra $$$ to get it, but I'm not in that camp.

One of my reasons for posting is I found this thread very interesting and to hear comments regarding this pair either both analogue out or both digital out, it seems they compared equally and I find that curious and honor what the listeners in the thread heard.

The components were designed and manufactured by the same people, and IMO their design approach and philosophy can be clearly heard in both products.

IOW, the fact that the TP was supposed to be an "audiophile" version doesn't mean their choices didn't limit the effectiveness of some (or all) of the higher end parts used.  I don't believe anyone is "(dis)honoring" what those in the the thread say they heard.

-Jim

[PhilNYC]

As a side note:  The new DAC1's don't sound bright at all.  Just very accurate and neutral.  Has anyone else experienced this?  I don't know where the bright DAC1 comments orignated from but maybe it was from earlier versions of the DAC1.

FWIW, I spoke with the Benchmark folks at the HE2007 show, and they told me that the only changes to the DAC1 since it's original release were the addition of the USB input and the cosmetics.  New ones should not sound different compared to the old ones.

[PhilNYC]

As mentioned in the Slim Devices thread, I was pretty surprised with the results, particularly given how easily differences have been discerned at our NY Audio Raves and other A/B comparisons I've been involved in.  But in general, as far as the differences between digital sources, I agree that these differences are generally much smaller than the differences between other components. 

[lcrim]

I have 2 SB3's w/ outboard DAC's and good quality linear PS.
In my living room the preamp only has three inputs and having a switch between coax and fiber on the SN TubeDac+ allows me the flexibility to use it to decode directv sound as well.  The other system could be used w/ the analog outputs but presently has a SN Chibi Dac off the coax output.  That DAC has a switch for absolute phase which I need to play with because it sounded a bit shouty and sibilant late last night.
I was probably the poster in the link who committed the crime of stating that the PS upgrades were pretty much a no-brainer and isn't a subtle upgrade.  I still feel that way. 
I tend to listen to vinyl but wouldn't want to do w/o Redbook.  I also figure that improvements in digital playback happen @ a fast rate and what was SOTA last week is passe very quickly.  I've given up on SACD and DVD-A.  Older CD's even when ripped, are still a bit problematic because of the less than stellar original mastering.  Bad transfers of bebop are still tough to take.

[JoshK]

From a cursory look at things, it does look like the transporter has the technological potential to be great.  It is just dissapointing that the stock unit doesn't impress more (haven't heard it myself).   

I am still on the look out for another SB2 that I can hack apart so that I can compare my mods to one without them. 

[1000a]

Second the good PS for the SB3 or 2, have a Welborne great improvements X the board.  Really great after doing a home brew magwire PC for it and mag ICs for the SB/DAC.

I have not heard the Transporter either, but from the comments I have heard there was no reason to get one it would starve my audio budget and keep me from other improvements that will yeild a higher % of overall sound improvement.  Even if it was reported to be better than it is, I probably would have held my cards for future gens of SBs.  Being a photographer I watch 5,000. digi camera tech trickle down very quickly to the starter models within a yr - yr and 1/2 max, I do not have to have the best a notch below usually saves tons of $$ for tunes.

Becoming a neophite DIY person I am fasinated by just how much bang for my $$ can I get, it is creative and fun.  Now had the Transporter kicked the SBs butt BIG tIME, I would have thought long and hard, knowing in 2 yrs the nxt trans. I would not be buying but waiting a gen or two.  With the SBs I can keep up for a fair price.

As someone stated this thing is moving very fast and I really prefer to see the nxt products improvements, than buy and sell the top shelf gear over and over again.  Just me. 

[tomjtx]

I have done several blind tests on stock Transporter  V modded transporter. Other tests on TP V varous mods of SB.
I also compared them sighted for about 2 weeks, same result.

From what I have read of the other test mine was possibly more thourough and matched SPL levels with a rat shack spl.

No one was able to tell a difference between stock and modded tp using balanced outs

Everyone agreed either TP was fantastic and very superior to a stock SB w linear psu

Everyone agreed they thought the tp was better than a full moddded bolder/ultimate psu as well

All tests were done with matched SPl's

Listeners included a recording engineer who also mods and designs equipment and a high end dealer and some professional musicians.

The stock TP , balanced outs is one of the best digital playbacks I have heard and sounded as good as the much praised Ayre universal player.

To assume a modded tp is better w/o hearing a stock tp. level matched and blind is an assumption I would not make.

equipment included Rowland amp and Watt/Puppy's.

I don't think anyone should dismiss the TP or assume it is not as good based on comments from this forum , many from people who haven't even heard it!

At the same time I think no one should buy a tp based on my comments either.

However I am making these comments in the hope that everyone woud audition a tp using their 30 day trial and make up their own mind.

I am not stating that a tp is superior in any absolute sense.
A test is only a snapshot of a brief moment in musical time and is affected by listeners state of mind, level of ear training (musical or stereo) and numerous other factors.

In the tests in my system there was a remarkable unanimity of opinion but that doesn't mean anyone else would agree.
Again, an in home test is the best way to pick gear.

[jhm731]

tomjtx-

As I posted on the SD forum, another TP user heard the same modified TP you tried and was blown away by the improvement. He purchased the unit.

[tomjtx]

tomjtx-

As I posted on the SD forum, another TP user heard the same modified TP you tried and was blown away by the improvement. He purchased the unit.

Was he using the rca or the balanced outs?

The modded TP  rca did sound better than the stock TP rca.

If I didn't have balanced outs I likely would have done the mod.

Did he listen blind?
If not, expectation bias could easily be the reason he was "blown away"

Very experiened listeners here could not identify a difference through the xlr outs.

They could identify a diff using the rca.

The modder is very reasonably priced and does quality work.
Double Ugly has a different mod on his and I am interested to hear that.

But on the modded TP I had , xlr out , there was no difference.



 

[Double Ugly]

To assume a modded tp is better w/o hearing a stock tp. level matched and blind is an assumption I would not make.

You're absolutely right. 

I have implied as much without having heard a stock unit, and I apologize.  My comments were based upon the thoughts and assessments of others, which is a horrible way to arrive at any definitive conclusion.  They should have remained precisely what they are and nothing more - data points.

-Jim

[tomjtx]

Jim,

Thanks for that clarification.

I am very interested to hear your version of the modded TP.

Soon as I sell a few guitars  I'll try to audition the version that you have

I am back up to 5 guitars aarrgghh, it's worse than the audio bug (except guitars go up in value

Tom