A good (but really good :wink:) system for around $3000 ?

redred · « **on:** 6 Aug 2003, 05:20 pm »

Hi,

I am asking for your help in choosing a system (CD player / amp / speakers) within this price limit... maybe I could actually go even a bit higher, if the extra money implies a really important improvement...

I listen mainly to rock music, but if there is something that fits opera as well, I would be more than happy - still, the big priority would be rock.

No tubes, but solid state.

No bookshelves, but floorspeakers.

I live in Europe (France) and I do not have the possibility of listening comparatively, so your advice would be the main criteria in choosing

If you can give me also some good advice where to buy from, please do not hesitate

BTW, do you happen to know good French (or European-) made systems (elements)? They should be more affordable here than US imports, right?

Thanks a lot for any kind of reply!!!

Hantra · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Aug 2003, 06:23 pm »

I would hesitate to recommend something until I find out the reasoning behind the following statements:

Quote

No tubes, but solid state.

No bookshelves, but floorspeakers.

Why?

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Aug 2003, 06:28 pm »

You might try this link and check out JM Reynaud speakers
http://www.mis-caen.fr/
The arpeggiones are the least expensive floorstanders.

redred · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Aug 2003, 06:41 pm »

Tonto Yoder: thanks for the link!

Hantra: I would prefer SS to tubes not because I would prefer the sound, but for practical reasons (I would like the system to be ready the very second it is switched on, I don't want to be concerned by tube replacement, tubes produce much heat etc.)... and I do not take as a dogma the affirmation that a tube amp sounds by definition better than a SS one

As for floorstanders vs bookshelves, actually I am not 100% decided... but I believe that floorstanders produce a better bass response, isn't it? Please tell me if I am wrong.

Hantra · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Aug 2003, 08:10 pm »

Red:

If it were me, I would look hard at the following:

Arcam A85 integrated amplifier - $900
Sony DVP-770 transport with SN Tube DAC - $600
Piega C2's new in box - $1900

Perhaps a little more than you wanted originally, but a HECK of a setup. Will play all types of music very well. You would be startled at the bass from C2's. The vast majority of today's high quality monitors have more than ample bass.

How big is your room?

B

redred · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Aug 2003, 10:16 pm »

Quote from: Hantra

How big is your room?

B

About 6 m x 5 m

I wonder if the stuff you mentioned is available in Europe and at which prices...

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 12:32 am »

"As for floorstanders vs bookshelves, actually I am not 100% decided... but I believe that floorstanders produce a better bass response, isn't it? Please tell me if I am wrong."

redred,
you might check out the Reynaud site for what they call their "Magic Stand." It claims to not merely raise a monitor to the right height, but to extend the bass (via Helmholtz resonators I believe). Can't say that I've heard it in action, but it sounds like an interesting concept.

Jay S · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 01:19 am »

Check out Odyssey Audio. They make the highly regarded Stratos series of amps. Many of their products are very similar to Symphonic Line, which as you may know is very expensive audio gear from Germany.

You can get their Khartago amp for $750, their Etesian preamp for $295 (or as a package for $995). See: http://www.odysseyaudio.com/news.html

Next, add their Circe ($1095) or Nightingale ($1,595) floorstanding speakers. http://www.odysseyaudio.com/loudspeakers.html

Klauss will give a package deal that includes Groeneberg cables if you buy the electronics and speakers.

I suggest that you contact Klaus. He is very helpful and will even tell you if his products will not meet your needs. He is very concerned about system synergy and will also be able to recommend other products to consider.

Depending on the speakers you choose (and the discount Klauss gives for a package) you'll then have at least $500-$1000 for a source. Here, you have 2 choices - a standalone player or a dac. I am more familiar with choices of dacs. I suggest you consider the following:

-- Channel Islands VDA-1 ($395). http://www.ciaudio.com/
-- Scott Nixon Dac ($250-$450). http://.www.scott-nixon.com
-- Bolder Cables modified ART DI/O. ($125 + $260-$410). http://www.boldercables.com

To me, the choice is between the Scott Nixon and the Bolder. The $250 Scott Nixon will likely give you better sound than any stand-alone player you can get for under $1000. His more expensive dacs don't so much give better sound but different sound. I personally have Bolder's top of the line modded dac and am very pleased with it. There have been comparisons vs the Scott Nixon TubeDac, with some people liking one, some the other. Getting the optional upgraded power supply for either dac is highly recommended. And, finally, the Bolder Cables digital cable (which you will need with a dac) is excellent -- it has best many much more expensive cables.

Have fun!

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 03:20 am »

I don't mean to create more confusion (as it usually happens in this type of questions) but I think it's necessary to make two points clear:

1) Local availability
2) KISS (that is Keep it simple stupid!)

I think you would be better served by products available in Europe and a simple setup. These people have not accounted in the budget electric filtration, a must for high performance. You can locally get DeZorel filters in France. We have been auditioning a unit and it is excellent. Here's the website: http://www.dezorel.com.

The next point is that of DAC vs all in one player. I think you would be best served by a belt driven CD player. Belt drives make a world of difference in smoothness and musicality. You can get CEC's belt driven CD player in Europe, as it is an offshoot of Toshiba (I believe). I do not agree with Jay's suggestion of purchasing a DAC that costs less than $100 and spending four times as much modding it. I do own the Channel Islands DAC (it is actually $349) and the combination of good power filtration and a belt driven transport is simply stunning. Transport is more important than DAC--what you don't retrieve cannot be recreated down the line. Here's the CEC website:

http://www.cec-international.de/pages/s1.htm

I have only heard good things from the French speaker line JM Reynaud. I also used to have French loudspeakers (JMlab) and was very happy with them (at the price point).

So, take your time and do not hurry.

The Psychic.

Edit: I forgot to add that I have been an audio/video salesman and that's why I don't have the "audiophile" frame of mind. I think that with your budget you'd do better with a two brick DeZorel filter, a CEC belt driven CD player, an integrated amplifier and a good set of floorstanders. Then you only need a great set of interconnects between CDP and integrated and a great set of speaker wires. Good cables are not cheap. I'd personally recommend the brand I have, as they are a recent brand that's been kicking some serious ass in this planet!

http://www.ridgestreetaudiodesigns.com

Jay S · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 05:14 am »

Quote

I do not agree with Jay's suggestion of purchasing a DAC that costs less than $100 and spending four times as much modding it. I do own the Channel Islands DAC (it is actually $349)

How does this matter? It is irrelevant to judge the value of a mod based on its cost in proportion to the cost of the stock unit. The relevant factors are the price:value relationship of the end product, and the potential resale value if in case you decide to sell. If there are any insurmountable design compromises in the stock unit then these will show up in the price:performance ratio of the modified unit. Is cheap necessarily bad? No way.

Jay S · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 05:18 am »

By the way, good point re the value of a quality transport. I heard very significant differences when using my Cary 303 vs a Pioneer 47Ai as transports. Music was much smoother, more dynamic and generally more coherent with the Cary.

I am thinking of taking it to the next step and am researching on CEC, Theta and Sonic Frontiers transports, with a CAL Delta as a cheap dark horse. I recognize that belt drives will potentially be better. And, so far, I get the impression that SACD/DVD players may not be as good as a dedicated cd transport of the same price. I had hoped that a good quality univeral player (e.g. a Denon 2900 with an upgraded clock) could be an excellent transport but perhaps a dedicated cd transport will provide better quality.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 12:50 pm »

Quote from: Psychicanimal

I don't mean to create more confusion (as it usually happens in this type of questions) but I think it's necessary to make two points clear:

1) Local availability
2) KISS (that is Keep it simple stupid!)

Eric D · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 04:50 pm »

I'm in complete agreement with Jay S. I was incredibly impressed by Karl's setup at HE2003 in San Francisco, and think that what he does goes together extremely well for the complete effect. In a hotel full of rooms that usually had totally unobtainable equipment cost-wise, I almost thought his "modest" systems sounded best. And I also think the room appearance of the matched pre and amp, as well as those Circe or Nightengale speakers, are so good you'd be proud of them in almost any setting. IMHO, that is a setup that would have friends with more expensive equipment thinking (at least to themselves) that they wasted the extra money.

Re Psychic's points, I agree that listening first is best; but if I had a friend who just had to buy a 2-channel system they couldn't listen to first, and in that budget, that is what I'd recommend. No figuring out if the speakers go with the amp or the amp with the pre. That's the best 2-channel-in-a-box at that price range I've heard.

With the core of preamp, amp, and speakers through him, you would have a nice amount left for the source. The one change I might suggest from what Jay said is maybe a source with SACD or DVD/A for high definition digital, and perhaps settle for the built-in DAC for standard CD for the time being. Or if you have $1000 to play with for the source, consider the DACs that Jay mentioned to refine the redbook playback.

enjoy!

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 06:44 pm »

Quote from: Eric D

Re Psychic's points, I agree that listening first is best

I buy most of my stuff w/out ever listening to it

I'm the Psychic! I don't know where you got that idea.

Eric D · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Aug 2003, 08:07 pm »

Quote from: Psychicanimal

Quote from: Eric D
Re Psychic's points, I agree that listening first is best

I buy most of my stuff w/out ever listening to it I'm the Psychic! I don't know where you got that idea.

My bad. I made an ass-umption when I read "local availability"

Jay S · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Aug 2003, 12:27 am »

Yeah, I've bought most of my stuff without listening to it first... my pre, amp (twice), speakers (twice). Worked out fine so far.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Aug 2003, 03:22 am »

If you guys think finding dealers for this stuff is tough in parts of Europe or Asia, try living in South Dakota!

I've bought an awful lot of stuff 'sound unheard', a necessary evil when you live here. There used to be several independant hifi dealers, but most have died off.

My method for picking stuff is to read as much as I possibly can; if you read enough, you eventually will get a feel for the relevance of a reveiwers opinion to you. For instance, if Roger Ebert loves 10 movies that I also love, and pans 10 movies that I hate, I may begin to get a feel for what he likes. And I'll be able to infer whether I'll like a new flick based on what he says about it. If a given writer/poster/reviewer consistantly agrees with me on gear that I know well, his opinion of a peice I haven't heard will interest me.

The reverse can be true, too: if you universally disagree with someone on just about everything there is, that can be helpful too.

I've had pretty good luck so far, but I agree it's nice to be able to audition stuff before you buy. Not that it will sound the same in your system, tho.