[JoshK]

Its just a question I am curious about.  Most DIY'ers I know are not using linestages and the opposite is true for many/most here.  I am not passing judgement, I am just wondering about people's systems.   So my question is, to the best of your knowledge, do you need gain?  Or do you think it just sounds better with a linestage with gain?

[warnerwh]

I've owned cd players with adjustable gain. The sound is clearly more transparent however dynamics suffer. In my opinion the loss of dynamics would not be worth it even if I could get away without a preamp. I need a pre due to having two sources.

[JoshK]

two sources doesn't have to mean gain....preamp can be a buffer (no gain) and/or passive/tvc/avc with switching for multiple sources.  This is what I am going to do, with option of gain as well.

[Bemopti123]

I have a TVC and couple of active preamps.  The TVC does a alright job with some sources, but it cannot hold a candle to active preamps in terms of dynamics.  Some people are purists and are into whatever gain the source will provide...Heck, I even have a pair of EVS Ultimate attenuators...Nice for what they do, but how I concurred with someone else, passive gain simply has a tendency of "meshing" complex tracks or musical lines together. 

Buffer might work with some, but people using TVC with buffers...aren't they adding too much cabling and circuits anyway?.  Perhaps some well designed "gained" preamps might have the same or less components, who knows?

[GHM]

So far I find I have plenty of gain without an additional gain stage. Normally my knobs don't get past 10 o'clock. On internet radio I find myself turning the volume down even more. Sometimes down to 8 o'clock. I guess between my amplifier and Dac there is more than enough gain here. There's no meshing or confused sounds in my system.

I've experienced too much gain in the past..not fun at all.

[WEEZ]

'none of the above'

I need gain, but not quite as much as I have

WEEZ

[mfsoa]

OK, one more data point for ya':

You can see my system below. With a plain old (I assume) 2V CD player, I have plenty of gain. On the average level CD, anything over approx 75% volume is uncomfortably loud. On a really quietly recorded CD, Kamakiriad comes to mind, I can have the volume at 100% for brief periods without having to run from the room but I would never listen for pleasure like that.


But I am source limited by not having gain in my pre - Like no Bolder analog SB for me w/out some additional gain.

I know I could have the gain upped on my amps, but don't feel like I need to now.

And I do pay attention to input sensitivity when amp-dreaming.

So for now, I need the flexibility of multiple inputs (been listening to more tuner than anything lately) and feel that the Superphon's active buffering gives me good dynamic punch.

-Mike

[DSK]

...So my question is, to the best of your knowledge, do you need gain?  Or do you think it just sounds better with a linestage with gain?

No, I don't need the extra gain (despite the Bolder modded SB2 only putting out 1V it drives my AKSA LifeForce 100 amp to sufficient volumes) but the system sounds clearly better with the AKSA GK-1 linestage in the system (and no less transparent).

I haven't voted as I'm not sure you have offered a response of 'Don't need the gain of a pre-amp but do use one because it sounds better'. I'm assuming your third option ("No, I don't need any more gain then my amp/source provides.") implies that a linestage is therefore not used.

[woodsyi]

...So my question is, to the best of your knowledge, do you need gain?  Or do you think it just sounds better with a linestage with gain?

No, I don't need the extra gain (despite the Bolder modded SB2 only putting out 1V it drives my AKSA LifeForce 100 amp to sufficient volumes) but the system sounds clearly better with the AKSA GK-1 linestage in the system (and no less transparent).

I haven't voted as I'm not sure you have offered a response of 'Don't need the gain of a pre-amp but do use one because it sounds better'. I'm assuming your third option ("No, I don't need any more gain then my amp/source provides.") implies that a linestage is therefore not used.

I am in this school.  I don't need the gain but I like it better with a preamp, but I am sure it depends on the preamp.  I definitely do need a source switching device though....

[2bigears]

today was my first sit-down listen with my pre in the system and it was night-and-day better.the music has gone from very thin to lush and deep. i will never be without a pre again. NO-CONTEST HERE. system:GNSC Opus 21 feeding VAC Sig Ren pre into VAC 30/30.the Zu Definitions are playing like the should now.today was an ear opening for sure.need ic cables and a little room treatment to finish before the wife hands me the divorce papers

[JoshK]

Just for clarity, so we are speaking the same language here:

1) you don't need a linestage with gain to have source switching.  Source switching can be provided in passive, active, just a switch, etc.  So I am not making any suggestions about single or multiple sources in my poll.

2)  Active line stage doesn't mean it necessarily has gain (can be an active unity buffer for instance), and technically you can have gain with passives, like TVC's and AVC's wired for step up.

Good examples of active line stages that have no gain, are the IRD Purist in 0db setting, many tube buffers or "buffered passives".  In the tube DIY world, this is most common with a cathode follower.

[woodsyi]

It is interesting that Modwright Mu circuit is more precise and dynamic than the lush sound of Art Audio Vinyl One which uses a cathode follower circuit.  I like that I can flavor my sound with an active preamp (without losing any resolution I contend).  There is time, mood and music for both of these on my system. 

[jon_010101]

I think passive switching and TVCs are a great solution for someone with all solid state sources and tube power amps.  But when tube sources and/or solid state amps enter the picture, an active preamp is often necessary to get a good impedance match. 

JMHO, but I am mostly opposed to integrated amps on the basis of noise -- switchable inputs means a lot of extra wiring in a fairly noisy electrical environment.  I am also opposed to passive resistive volume controls, unless they are built in to the power amp and are being driven by a solid state source.  Preamps with gain really provide a lot of needed flexibility.  A good one should be able to drive any amp, provide enough gain (when needed), and provide a friendly load to any source.  These benefits, I think, far outweigh any added distortion.

My fantasy DIY preamp would contain some sort of transformer volume control, driving a tube preamp stage, with a balanced transformer-coupled output.  Solves the phase splitting problem before you even get to the power amp, easily drives a long cable, and provides noise rejection along the way.  Use an easy-to-drive differential amp for the first stage of the power amp, and you are going to have a very low distortion system 

[JimJ]

I run an active linestage because I didn't want to worry about my amps not being driven adequately - with 8wpc I need to have enough line level voltage going to them.

My pre also handles source switching and phono preamp duties as well.

[Russtafarian]

For me it's a tradeoff.  I have remote volume control on both of my sources, Oppo player and SB3 so I can run them directly into my amp.  Running direct, I gain transparency and resolution but I lose dynamics and I get a gritty hardness in the lower treble region.  Using a CAT SL1 preamp, I lose some transparency and resolution but get the dynamics and drive back.  The lower treble is smoother and more open sounding.

One big factor in my system is that the output stage opamps in both the Oppo and SB3 have been bypassed and the DACs output is AC coupled to the next gainstage component.  This approach improves the transparency of both sources but begs for some sort of impedance-matching buffer or gainstage.  So having the preamp in the system gives me an overall more enjoyable musical experience.

Russ

[rollo]

Very interesting responses so far. Couple of things, a TVC with transformer output sends the correct impedance to the amp from source.  When the components are suited for each other. Example: CDP with 2V or more output into TVC to Amp with very low input sensitivity. Its tough to beat IMO. Enter the tubed buffer with TVC [ 6db gain ] adds dynamics to sound.  So a linestage in different configuration so to speak. GAIN !
     Now enter active linestages with caps resistors and stuff. IMO the gain of the preamp is moot as a TVC has gain as well. It is the circuitry of the preamp or buffer that matters. When right more dynamics. GAIN !
     What matters most IMO is, the attenuator in the preamp is resistive based in stead of transformed coupled. IMO the transformer coupled design offers more with less. Allowing the signal to be optimized and sent to a GAIN stage while presenting the correct impedance to the amp.
     So, now its how YOU want to do it, either with TVC/Buffer or Linestage. GAIN is a constant. Yes we need GAIN in one form or the other. Now if the source say CDP has enough GAIN the linestage is not required just volume control in some form. Lets not even talk about vinyl.   
     Do you need a linestage? Yes and no. You need GAIN though no matter the source. I vote you need GAIN, but not necessarily from a linestage. There are many options.

     rollo

[PhilNYC]

I think it depends on the input sensitivity of your amp more than anything else...