[Hantra]

THANK YOU!!!!

       

So, I have been really frustrated lately with my system.  I have been doing all kinds of things, and making all kinds of changes.  I have made so many, I just got lost.  I got a more transparent preamp that uncovered all the sins of my room.  I played with speaker placement for 3 weeks because of this.  I spent HOURS doing that.  

I talked to Bill at 8th Nerve, and he recommends 2 more treatments for my room.  I knew that the others did wonders, so I thought I would try these Framed Response controllers.  

So I installed them per Nathan's instructions.  I mailed Nathan probably 10 times or more!!!!         And I still couldn't quite solve this problem I had.  I liked the change that the Framed Responses brought in, but I was still getting some crazy dry smear going on.  It was to the point where I thought of starting over.  I thought of selling my gear, and buying a new SUV.  

Tonight, I called Nathan, and chatted for 10 minutes.  In TEN MINUTES, Nathan was not only able to talk me down, but he gave me the best advice yet.  He gave me a method for speaker placement.  Not a method like Cardas, or some math. . .  Just a simple method for PRECISE placement.  

It turns out that I spend 30 minutes on it tonight, and I just came out of the room after one of the most emotional experiences I have ever had with ANY system!  I just sat through Rachmaninoff's "Isles of the Dead" absolutely mezmerized.  I was seriously glued to my chair.  Pulse racing, short of breath. . .  I got up after that, and came right here to tell you all.  

I cannot tell you the absolute frustration I have been through in the past several weeks.  It has been torment.  And to hear my system do what it just did. . .

Man I am dumbfounded.  I am dumbfounded what 1/8" difference makes, EVEN when the speakers are toed the same, and appear to measure equidistant from walls.

All I can say is THANK YOU guys. . .

You know, Nathan didn't HAVE to share with me what he did, or respond to countless e-mails.  Bill didn't HAVE to look at my room diagram, and help me out.  These guys didn't HAVE to go that extra mile.  But they did. . .  I know that they have done that even for people who haven't bought ONE THING from them.  

I can't thank you guys enough for ending my frustration, and bring my freaking MUSIC back.  I can't say enough how rewarding my experience has been dealing with you guys (except for my first speaker purchase from you. .     hahahaha  ) . . .

Thanks again, and I will recommend you guys even more wholeheartedly than I did yesterday. . .

B

edited subject to reflect speaker placement method content. . .

[MaxCast]

Good for you Hantra.  I've got some work to do with my system as well.
So what is the simple method for PRECISE placement?

[Hantra]

Nathan:

Care to expand on this?

B

[8thnerve]

Nathan:

Care to expand on this?

B

I'd be happy to.  Let me put together a diagram that I can reference and I will post it and some instructions later today.

Glad that worked for you Brandon.  It still shocks me how much difference a fraction of an inch makes, but it really is important.

Info to come....

[Hantra]

Well, since Nathan is out of town for the weekend, I will make an attempt to explain what I did.  I think this method actually is one that the US distributor of Avant Garde uses, but the way he explains it is so strange, and hard to understand.  Nathan explained it much better, and since he has actually done it, he can put it into words better than most.  

I am sure he'll let me know if I go astray, and don't 'splain this right, but here goes anyway. . .

First off, you want to get your speakers a good distance from you, in an acceptible position.  You want to get the best bass response, and make sure you have no real bad frequency anomalies by adjusting them back and forth.  you can follow whichever rules you want, Cardas, or I used CARA.  Once you get the distance right from the listener, at this point, you will want to measure the distance from the listener to the front of the speakers in a straight line.  

If the distance is say 10 feet, you will take 10 feet, and use 70%-80% of that distance to determine how far apart the speakers need to be. (This will be line "C" in Digaram X below) I started with 75%, and you can do more if you need a wider soundstage, or less if you need more focus.  Keep it between 70%, and 80% though.

At this point, make sure the distance from the speakers to the side walls is about the same, and same with the front, and back walls.  You don't have to be too exact, but get within 1/2 inch to 1/4 inch.

Now, reference the following diagrams:

Diagram X



Diagram Y



At this point, you will want to get out your tape measure.  I find that the metal tape measures are worthless for this step.  If you can, get yourself one of those tapes that is 25-50 feet long, and is actually like a nylon, or cloth tape.  These will work best.  

Note the yellow lines in diagram Y.  What you want to do is measure the entire width of your room.  Measure, and make sure you are the same distance from the back wall on both sides of the room.  It's easy to be 1" or more off, and not really notice it.  Therefore, use two tape measures to make sure you are the same distance on either side.

Do this to the smallest increment you can accurately (probably 1/16" with a tape).  Divide by 2, and use the result to drive a nail in your floor (note that the red dot represents a nail).  You want the nail to be your listening position.  If you have hardwood floors, and you don't want to nail, I am not sure how to get around that.  Don't use tape or anything unless you can be super accurate, and make sure it doesn't move a bit.  

The cool thing about the flexible tapes is that they will hook onto a nail, and swivel, so you have very little variance in your measurements.  

Once you have nail #1 in place, then go to a spot in front of your speakers.  This should just be close to the front of the speakers, but equidistant from the sides of the walls.  Like nail #1, you will want to put nail #2 in the same spot width-wise.  (nails are represented in Diagram X by orange 1, and 2)

At this point, you should have two nails in your floor, and they should both be dead in the center of the room between both your side walls.

Let's move on.  

The next step, you can reference in Diagram X.  What you want to do is hook your tape measure onto your newly driven nail 1.  Now, proceed to measure line A in Diagram X.  You will want to go from nail 1 to a point on your speakers that is very precise.  I prefer using the front, inside corner on TOP of the left speaker for this first measurement.  Repeat the measurement on the other speaker for line B.  This will be the inside corner of the right speaker.  You want these to be exactly the same.  If they are not, make the needed adjustment to correct.  

Next, from nail 1, measure to the OTHER front corner of the left speaker.  This would be the left, outside corner.  Do the same for the right, and make the needed adjustment to ensure the same measurements.

Pay close attention that you use the same tension on the tape each time, and that it's not coming off the nail in a different direction to add length.  You think this is minor, but after you hear what difference 1/8" makes, you will understand.  

Go to nail 2.  Repeat the measurements from nail 2 to the same spots on the speakers.  Make sure they are the same.  If you make adjustments off nail 2, then go back and measure from nail 1.  this can be frustrating, but it's the best tweak ever.

When you get them right, then do toe-in.  Toe-in the speakers to your desired angle.  Me personally I toe them in so that I can still see a bit of the inside cabinet.  you may want to use a laser at this point to aim if you prefer.  

Keep one thing in mind.  This is what screwed me up, so I will warn you now.  Any speaker will image REGARDLESS of the level of toe-in. A speaker can be toed OUT, and it will image AS LONG AS they are EQUIDISTANT from the listener within very low tolerances.  Toe-in will change the tonal balance a bit, but should not change imaging much.

Once you toe your left speaker the way you want it, make measurements all over again.  Then use those measurements to do the right speaker the same way.  Don't forget that BOTH nails have to be used to make adjustments, and the measurements should be the same for BOTH speakers.  

When you have finished this, you will understand why you need to go through all this work.  This is probably the single best tweak I have ever tried.  And it's free.  It will take you maybe an hour, and you now have two nails in your floor, but once you're done, your done.  

No matter if you have "room correction", eq, or anything like that, this will work in ANY system.  The results will speak for themselves.  As a matter of fact, since I now know what differences there are in 1/16", I want more.  I want to be within a mm.  I will be using MORE advice from Nathan, and getting myself a laser tape measure to accomplish this.  I have spent more money on less effective tweaks, so I am looking forward to the results.

If you guys find that I have omitted something, or I need to add, please let me know.  This will get you guys started that want to try this over the weekend.

Thanks again to these guys for interpreting this method for me!

B

[Obie]

B-

Thank you for posting your experience with this set-up technique.  When we do customer installs, we are really REALLY slavish about exactitude in these measuring procedures.  From horns to boxes to planars, these methods have worked marvels for us.

In general, the ratio of 70% to 80% works well.  The closer the speakers are to one another, you will gain slightly more compelling tonal balance.  The further apart, the sharper the image becomes (until you tear it apart!).  So, within that span of 10 percent or so you can make fine choices between harmonic richness and image presentation.  All three of us Nervees have different preferences, but we aim for 75% for customer installs.

When we do installs, we take an RTA to determine where we can get best bass response within the geometry of the room.  This gives the best starting point for the rest of the set-up.  If you can't get ahold of an RTA, simply choose a track with solid, compelling bass and move around the room to find where it is the juiciest.

For those with wood floors, consider using a scrap of 2x4 gaffed down securely.  You can pound nails in to your hearts content, and it will come close to the repeatability of nails sunk right into the floor.

Another question worth asking during set-up is, "Do I KNOW how my system is presenting absolute polarity?"  While some recordings switch polarity, its really good to know for sure what you're starting with.  I can't count the number of times we've gone to customer's rooms to find that some piece of gear was switching their signal.  When it gets worked out so that the speakers are behaving the way their designers intended, the sound always benefits.  I know that there is at least one AC fellow who had this experience with me   .

One final caution is to examine how level your speakers are.  Take the time to level the speakers and repeat your measurements for best results.  A difference of a few degrees in the floor will change your speaker performance dramatically.

Thanks again to Jim Smith of Avantgarde USA who taught us to be so maniacal about this stuff.  

Best,
Kris Johnson

[jcoat007]

Not sure how you deal with rooms like mine.  See this link:

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=515

I do not have use of the entire room since I need to share it with my office.  Since the nails need to be in the dead center of the room, should I just pick a spot that is between the speakers.  As long as I am measuring from that spot, then the speakers will be aligned correctly from the listening position and a spot between them.  

Another question:  Why would you toe-in after all of this measuring.  It seems like you have spent all this time getting it just right and then have to re-measure after you toe-in.  In my case I would probably start with them toed-in and then just do all of this once.  Or am I missing something.

Thanks for this info.  It looks very helpful and I am going to try it this weekend.

[Hantra]

Since the nails need to be in the dead center of the room, should I just pick a spot that is between the speakers.

My bad.  I should have mentioned that the nail should be right where the listener sits.  (which should be dead between the speakers).  I was just going off my room which is dedicated.  Thanks for pointing that out!

Also, the other thing. . . I did it both ways.  You can toe, then measure.  It's just harder for me to find out which way I need to move them if they are toed already.  When you do it, you'll understand what I mean.  

For example, if one speaker is dea on, and the other is on at both points from one nail, but off on only ONE point on the other nail, which way do you move it?  Who knows.  When you do move it, you'll throw off the other nail.  hehe  I just like doing initial measurements when they are square, and then just rotate a bit, and re-measure.  But it's not necessary.  

B

[John Casler]

Hi Hantra,

How do you deal with the right side, and rear wall relections?

Or at least it appears that you are sitting within a foot of the rear wall?

That can be good for bass, but usually causes rear wall reflection problems.  Since you have an opening on the left side, I can see that would help there but the right side is still there.

Do you use Eighth Nerve on them?

[Hantra]

How do you deal with the right side, and rear wall relections?

Or at least it appears that you are sitting within a foot of the rear wall?

Hey John. . .  

Tell you what. . I haven't even messed with the rear wall yet.  I am fully decked out with Eighth Nerve everywhere, but haven't touched the rear wall.  I don't really notice any nasties.  What should I listen for?

I have some extra corners I can try there. . .

L8r,

B

[John Casler]

Tell you what. . I haven't even messed with the rear wall yet. I am fully decked out with Eighth Nerve everywhere, but haven't touched the rear wall. I don't really notice any nasties. What should I listen for?

Well its hard to describe, but the best way to hear it (or lack of it) is to stand in the listening position (against the wall) "crank it up" and notice what the sound does as you take a step out, and then another, and another.

Generally as you step out into the room, the bass becomes less boomy and the clarity of sound improves, since you are subtracting the relfections and hash they create.  You are also losing the room reinforcment of the bass at the same time.

Main thing though is don't let me introduce problems that aren't there.  If it is sounding perfect to you. then enjoy, but if moving the couch off the wall a foot or two gives greater clairity then enjoy that even more.  

As you step into the room however be prepared for the bass to also lessen.  Find the spot that gives the best "balance" of real sound.

[BikeWNC]

Here is an excerpt from
http://www.immediasound.com/Speaker_set-up.htm regarding rear wall refections.

The close proximity of the head to the rear wall has two effects. At the room boundaries (walls) the room nodes are suppressed - because the sound pressure is high and the velocity is low. Sitting in the maximum pressure area gives the best perception of deep bass. Secondly, the reflections are shorter than the circumference of the head, so the brain cannot measure the time delay between the ears. When the brain cannot localize reflections it ignores them. Here is a simple example of how the brain ignores unwanted or unessential information. Imagine the situation of being in a noisy public place and conversing with the person next to you. Even though a recording made from your listening position would sound like random noise, you can follow the conversation. If you hear your name spoken several feet away, you can change your focus, and “listen in” on the other conversation. Our brains do this automatically all the time to, for example, filter out the annoying natural resonance of a room to facilitate speech, or to identify potential dangers.

To sum up, it is usually best to locate the listening position so the first information to arrive at the ears is from the speaker and the secondary reflections arrive much later and at a much lower volume. Place the listening chair near the rear wall, because the distance ( 1 to 3 feet ) is too short for the brain to measure the time delay and locate the source of the reflection. Also, it places you at the room boundary where the perception of bass is greatest. In regards to the bass reinforcement advantage, we will expand on that in the next section.

[Hantra]

Andy:

I'll go ahead and tell you that I tried the Immedia setup two weeks ago, and I had the best vocals I've ever heard.  But anything that was the least bit panned to either side, like instruments, was horrible.  It was almost spooky.  It was like the vocals were locked in, and super real, but the instruments were so detached from the soundstage, it sucked.

I wish I could get vocals like that and still have everything else not fall apart. . .

B

[BikeWNC]

B

I know what your saying as I have experienced the same problem.  It might just be a function of room size.  The best sound I have heard has been in larger rooms than the one I'm currently using.  I'm working on the WAF thing and may try to move into the family room which is 26 x 19.  Heck, my wife is working this weekend so I may just give it a trial run.  

Andy

[jcoat007]

So I just tried this technique.  I put a nail in the floor at the listening position and a spot just in front of the front plane of the speakers, right in the middle of where I wanted to place them.  I do not have the entire room, so centering in the room is not possible.  

What was very intersting is that this method does away with many of the placement problems I had because of something that I never even considered.  My walls are not perfectly straight in relation to the listening position.  I have been measuring off the wall behind the speakers, but because the wall is not straight, that puts the speakers at different distances to the listener.  When you measure from a point at the listening position and then another point closer to the speakers, you eliminate these problems.  

One thing that immediately happened was the center images were suddenly there.  This was something that I have struggled with constantly.  While I know having the rack between your speakers is not ideal, I now have a center image.  I always thought it was the rack, and maybe moving the rack to side or lowering it will improve the image further.  But for now, I have wall-to-wall soundstage with no gap in the middle.  I have never had that.  Image placement is now much better because there is no gap in the middle.  

This is one of those things that is so simple, so cheap and provides huge gains.  

Thanks for this information.  Simply Incredible.  

[Hantra]

ME TOO!!!

I had been doing this off two center points on the WALLS.

Lame idea!!!  I had no idea how bad that was until I tried the floor. . .

B

[Carlman]

I know that there is at least one AC fellow who had this experience with me  .
 ...

That would be me   ....

Sorry for the late post but, I haven't browsed here in a while...

I'm glad to see Hantra had the same experience I did.  Kris came and did a great job doing what Hantra has explained here in the house I just moved from.  The placement alone did wonders for imaging but, the sound treatments provided a new dimension for me.  Also, all new cabling helped after Kris left.  I had genuine crap while he was at my house because I'd sold everything decent to buy the good stuff.

My system really came together and I was as happy as I've ever been with hifi.  Then I moved.

Now I can use the method described (and now illustrated) to get back to where I was.  Thanks Hantra for the write-up.  Thanks Kris and Nathan for your help in person and on the phone.  8th Nerve is an incredible company and I wish them great success.  (Which is inevitable in my opinion.)

-Carl