Upcoming review; RWA Signature 30 / Vista i84 integrated Amps

Zero · « **on:** 7 May 2007, 08:01 pm »

Gentlemen,

I’m feeling a bit spoiled lately. You see, I’ve got in two very fine affordable integrated amplifiers in for review. The first piece needs no introduction around these parts as it is none other than the Red Wine Audio Signature 30. Before you ask; yep, it’s a darned good piece and not just for its price.

The other amplifier is the Vista Audio i84 – a relatively unknown piece in most parts of the audio world. Retailing for nearly half the cost of the RWA, this valve-based amplifier has come as a complete shock to yours truly. This is a VERY special and capable piece - hanging right on in there with the RWA Sig 30.

By now you must be wondering what the purpose is for the post. Well the first point is to get some attention – and if you’ve read this far I’d wager it worked. The second is to gather feedback on what type of review YOU would like to read.

I can go two different directions with these pieces. On one hand, I could give both pieces completely separate reviews. On the other, I could weave both pieces into one large review that compares these two capable pieces – highlighting strengths and weaknesses in relation to one another. There are a few pro’s and con’s here, ranging anywhere from the length of the article to the amount of history and insight I can give each product. For an example of the latter, check out the SIA Rothschilde A2 versus the ACI Sapphire XL article here; http://www.affordableaudio.org/aa2007-02.pdf

I look forward to your feedback! Meanwhile; its off to enjoy some music on this very fine day!

WEEZ · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 May 2007, 10:22 pm »

I like comparison reviews myself. (might need to check with the mgfr's?)

WEEZ

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 May 2007, 10:52 pm »

A6M-ZERO...
You should have fun

....both Vinnie and Boris build some very fine amps...I know both, and have heard both amps.Try different things...compare....use single drivers as well as 2 and 3 way speakers....drop in a tube preamp....mix and match. Things will surprise you....its all in the discovery. Happy listening.......

Chris

Zero · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 May 2007, 11:29 pm »

Thanks for taking out some time to give me your feedback and suggestions. Your words help to give me a better idea on how to approach reviewing products that share similar goals, price brackets, yet differ drastically in design.

Let’s face it; the majority of your audio reviews all conclude on two similar notations. After a bit of praise, you are often encouraged to take home the product and try it for yourself. It’s either that, or the reviewer urges you by written demand to bring it home with no questions asked. In a world with positive reviews generated from genuinely good products – with so few ‘bad’ products, its easy to feel like you are spinning your wheels.

My approach with the SIA Rothschilde A2 and the ACI Sapphire XL was not just to give two capable products the thumbs up. It was to illustrate how differently they worked to achieve the same goal of aural satisfaction.

Giving it more thought, the RWA Sig 30 and the Vista Audio i84 occupy different price-points, making a joint review a bit un-balanced as I do not wish to give too much to, or take away from either piece. In other words, its best to keep it apples and apples.

Zero · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 May 2007, 06:03 am »

Just to note; I am still very much open to hearing YOUR opinions on the subject of joint-reviews! Don't be shy - !

Rocket · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 May 2007, 11:04 am »

Hi,

I'd prefer two separate reviews as both products are quite different.

Regards

Rod

pilot232 · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 May 2007, 11:41 am »

I agree with Rocket. Two separate reviews.

JLM · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 May 2007, 11:45 am »

I find some comparisons most useful, but only if compared to a known product, and you say of similar cost/features.

ThomDP · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 May 2007, 02:46 pm »

Two seperate reviews, with a brief comparison.

Thank You,
Dennis

Levi · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 May 2007, 04:20 pm »

I don't think a comparison testing would be fair since they have totally different topology? SS vs SE? Hmmm...there is much work to be done. I am looking forward to the review.

ZLS · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 May 2007, 05:30 pm »

It is my belief, especially in terms of amplifiers, that they should not be compared unless they are interchangeable in a given system. Are the amplifiers intended for the same purpose? Is one a viable alternative to the other? If one requires a high efficiency system, and the other does not, what is the sense? It has to be, or at least should be more than a reviewer has gotten both amps at the same time!

Zero · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 May 2007, 06:04 pm »

Everyone – I truly appreciate the feedback!

ZLS – The answers to your questions are as follows; Yes. Yes. No. (they do not require full range drivers / horns to operate well).

Levi – I personally believe that it is _not_ out of the realm of fairness to compare two capable pieces of different topologies. In fact – that is exactly what makes comparisons so darned interesting in the first place! It is great to hear how two products that are so radically different from each other can still deliver the goods and meet a common goal in their own unique way.

As an aside; In hindsight, I’ve decided to call off the comparison on these two particular units simply due to their difference in price. It’s a difference that is not subtle as the Vista i84 retails for $729, while the RWA Sig 30 goes for $1499.

With that said… this topic is still incredibly valuable for future references – be it speakers, amplifiers, pre amplifiers, cd players, cables… you name it! Please continue to submit your opinion on the matter! And once again - thanks for your responses!

Bill Baker · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 May 2007, 07:15 pm »

I would say a comparison of two similar priced/powered products would help give readers an idea of what to expect in regard to sonic differences. As others have mentioned, they should be interchangeable with the test system (similar power ratings at least). If they are tested within separate systems, it is rather irrelevant at that point as there are too many variables that come into play.

I would say one review that initially separates the products with a comparison of the two towards the end. This way you can comment on the product's own merits before speaking of the differences.

I do think this one is stretching things with one being twice the price of the other unless you want to do it as a <$1500 category.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 May 2007, 12:15 am »

My experience with mfrs is they usually HATE product shootouts, because it's very
rare if ever that they are fair. While many reviewers go at this with all the best intentions,
keeping everything similar, etc, etc. Often times amplifier A needs different conditions
to sound its best, or amplifier B does.

The other end of the shootout thing that is tough on everyone is that many people are
looking for the "giant killer" in the crowd and that too rarely if ever exists. And I could
write a book about that subject, so I don't want to bore you with that. (feel free to PM
if you would like to discuss at length someday..)

What is often really helpful is pointing out the strengths, weaknesses and potential
compatibility/synergy issues with a particular component and telling the reader
WHY you may prefer amplifier A over B. And you never know, another person could
listen to those same two things and draw the exact opposite conclusion...

In the end, it is really a sensitive issue to take someone's creation, pass judgement
on it and hold it up to the world to read. I haven't met one manufacturer that isn't
passionate about what they do.

Just remember, it's not always cut and dry. As they used to say on Twin Peaks,
"The Owls are not what they seem"

Have fun!

raov1 · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 May 2007, 12:18 am »

Different reviews and a few points to compare the 2 (since you as for it

) because I would be curious to know know how different or similar they sound .... not better or worse !!!

Zero · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 May 2007, 01:12 am »

Joint reviews are dicey for a few reasons. As mentioned before, there becomes the question on whether or not a person can provide each product with their ideal situation – be it in terms of room, electronics, and even music selection. If you make it past that first hurdle, the second entails the challenge of creating a entertaining yet very informative review that gives both products well deserved attention and thorough analysis – all without giving heavy bias towards one particular side. Often times the bottom line will also come down to attention and the fear of a bit of thunder being stolen in that process. Putting the shoe on the other foot – if you were to submit your creation in for a stand-alone review only to find it to be pinned up against something else which you may or may not have any knowledge of, can put a damper on things. Hence why, as “WEEZ” mentioned in the first response; how important it is to gain manufacturers consent.

However, if I can provide ideal enough conditions for both products and have the blessing of both parties – than its something that in my mind, has plenty of merits that ultimately benefit every party, most importantly the consumer.

As stated before, I will have to eat crow and admit I jumped the gun a bit in proposing a joint-review of these two fine integrated pieces. You could blame it on over enthusiasm! It’s easy to write about cost-no-object hi-fi and claim there is little to pick apart. In a world where most products out there are good, its fun when you come across something truly exceptional – something that allows you to get a sample of the real-deal at common man prices. That, to me, is when you have something really worth writing about!

Jeff - I shot you a PM.

Audiovista · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 May 2007, 01:25 pm »

Quote from: raov1 on 12 May 2007, 12:18 am

..... I would be curious to know know how different or similar they sound ....

The amps represent technologies on the opposite ends of audio electronics timeline and they both have strong following. That's the fun part of this crazy business - I don't think that anyubody would pick B/W TV set from sixties over HDTV monitor of today.

Quote from: A6M-ZERO on 12 May 2007, 01:12 am

However, if I can provide ideal enough conditions for both products and have the blessing of both parties – than its something that in my mind, has plenty of merits that ultimately benefit every party, most importantly the consumer.

More than 80% of inquiries we receive are of the type: "How does your product work with XX speakers", or "How does it compare with YY amplifier", "Is it compatible with ZZ preamp", etc. Most of the time I did not hear the particular combo and can't help prospective customer. In that respect reviews that test equipment in different setups are indeed very valuable resources for both, customer and manufacturer.

Zero · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 May 2007, 02:27 am »

While the comparison has been called off; I thought I would post a (very poor) picture of the RWA Sig 30 and the Vista i84 together. Talk about a cute couple eh?

Zero · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 May 2007, 04:32 am »

hmm lets try this again?

Well crap, just click on my album link.. second page.

Levi · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 May 2007, 03:08 pm »

Here you go. I'll post them for you.