[gooberdude]

Put me down for a stop on the road show...

[TheChairGuy]

GooberMatt,

PM me your address and off ye' shall have it...do you need/want both the Benz and the EAR phono pre? (plenty of gain for about any low output cartridge).  One or more of the tubes was quite noisy when I got it, and fortunately I have a stash of barely used Sovtek 12AX7LPS' (which is what the EAR came with) so I hunted around and think I found the worst offending tube and replaced it.

Still, it's tube and not the quietest phono pre in existence (it doesn't have regulated supplies either, so tubes are noisier and probably go faster because of that, too), but it does have that fabulous toob-bloom that adds ambience to almost any recording gratefully.

Woodsyi's version of it has the (once-optional) volume control that allows you to plug it directly to your amp(s).....so you can see if your current line amp is beneficial or not to your vinyl listening pleasure. 

Between the low output Benz and EAR 834p you have a very flexible pairing of items to discover the various joys of vinyldom 

Hey, ya' can't beat woodsyi's generosity or price on it either (merely postage to the next stop when you're done with it).

Thanks again, Rim, for allowing so much time to explore it / them 

[TheChairGuy]

Matt, they are on their way to you - per my PM.

I added some (very easily removable  - woodsyi) ERS clothe inside the EAR phono pre...I thought I heard a little layer of noise eliminated in doing so (maybe it performed the same 'magic' as tube shields for RF and EMI  ).  I've found that stuff mostly bad in 'digital' gear, but seems to clean up some nasties in 'analog' gear. In the digital gear I've had it in (DAC, CDP) I found it whitewashes the treble....in analog gear it's a mixed bag mostly tilting towards favorable. 

Here, I thought it did far more good than bad...see for yourself...it's just four easy screws on the top to get inside the wee box.

I also left some extra Herbie's Halo Jr's I had about in there....I found it a little too tubey-bloomy until I added them.  See how you like it with and without them...I think I remember you mentioning your a big fan of Herbie's stuff (I have the great Way Excellent Turntable mat and HALO tube dampers on my tube amps).

It's all so subjective and system dependent, of course, but the 'tweeks' are all easily removed if it's not your cup o' tea.

Enjoy, John   

[gooberdude]

Very cool John.     I am a big fan of Herbie's tweaks, steve herbelin is a good guy in this biz...   


I've been playing with ERS cloth lately too.  I had a sheet for almost 2 years and thought it was a tool of the devil, it killed sonics in my cd player and computer.  After sticking it inside my BPT power strip though, i'm hooked.     Most recently i've been wrapping all my Bullett plug rca's with ERS, and the results are dope.     Its not as if i've ever had a situation where i heard noise and ERS took it away though...it just removes something that wasn't fully audible, but my system sounds much better with its removal.


I am looking forward to this LOMC experience.  Many thanks to Woodsyi for providing such nice gear.


matt

[TheChairGuy]

I used the ERS clothe in the EAR with a backing layer of copper taping for better measure...it's among what ZCable (now Clarity Cable) uses in their ZSleeves (which, dammit, do work, but pricey  ) : http://www.claritycable.com/Z-Sleeves.html

[gooberdude]

where do you get copper taping?  any hardware store???      I'll definitely try wrapping ERS cloth with copper tape to the bullett plug barrels.


then folks will really think i know what i'm talking about....

[TheChairGuy]

I bought 'em here http://www.surplussales.com/RF/RFSilv-CoppS.html

I can't remember what widths I bought (maybe 1/2 and 3/4"?).  You might try ebay, too...

John / TCG

[woodsyi]

Thanks John,

I have been meaning to tweak the unit but just had too many other things going on.  It's supposed to be an excellent candidate for "mods" -- there is certainly plenty room in there.  Only thing I have tried was tube rolling and I will say that Telefunken tubes perform way better then the Sovtek ones in there, but I only have so many of those and the freaking x-over I just picked up uses 13 of them.  So, I couldn't throw them in the tour. 

Matt,  take your time and have fun with it.  After you are done, see if Robert wants a turn with it to see if his Clearaudio setup benefits with this unit.  Let's keep Rob busy in his quest for analog bliss  -- kind of keep his mind off other things.      

[gooberdude]

Woodsyi, this combo is just amazing.      what a treat.

I've been listening to the EAR phono stage for a week with the AT440MLa and finally got around to mounting the MC-3 today.    I'm simply floored...     Where did all this music come from?  loads of hidden info still left in my vinyl collection.

When the stage arrived the trafo inside had completely disconnected and was rolling around - no damage done though.   The inside is an ERS cloth graveyard now thanks to TCG.

The stylus list was no issue. Though i'm stretching the azimuth adjustment abilities of the tonearm, the stylus seems to be perfectly vertical.   adjustments to find the right spot were audible.

For starters, are the Benz LOMC carts better with bass than other varieties of LOMC?  I thought that was the achillies heel of LOMC?   its astounding, big and true with the MC-3.  Hip Hop rocks...    Every other aspect of the presentation is dope too.    I've gotta start playing the Lottery soon, or start selling plasma...this venture is gonna cost me big $ in the months to come.

1)  Why don't more carts have the threaded tops?   WTF?  the MC-3 was so easy to mount.   

The MC-2 is 1.2 grams heavier than the AT 440MLA, which is an issue with my diminuitive counterweight.  Since no metal nuts/washers are needed to lock the MC-3 to the headshell, it only weighs .6 grams more than the AT when installed...a manageable difference.

2)  Why do many of us listen to MM given that performance like this exists??  hidden info is everywhere in my LP's.   I'm a LOMC convert once my budget allows it...

3)  How much is it going to cost to re-produce this sound with modern gear??


i'm really smitten and taken back by the imaging, the whole enchilada really...    instruments are larger, voices are awesome, imaging & soundstage are enormous and dense and layered....detail out the yin yang.

A few things i'm quite surprised by:   For starters, that my tonearm is compatible..   I've had more than a few audio salon salesguys tell me that the quality of the bearings in my arm would be like acid to a LOMC.  I also read that a light weight tonearm might not be a good fit.

Second is that most, or all of the tube hum (or whatever the weird noises are) is essentially inaudible with the MC setting.    With the MM setting, in between tracks a hum was audible.     Not with the MC-3 installed...

I'm running the EAR right into the Belles amp, having the TVC in-line was like adding a jar of molasses.  finally, the 120 wpc of my amp are 'too much' with the 96 db hawthorne Si's.  Somehow the Belles and my TVC just don't like each other too much.    i can't spin the vol knob on the EAR past 12 o'clock - way too loud.


I've set the EAR stage on top of a set of Mapleshade brass footers, and have a pointed weight on top...make's a great change to the midrange clarity.    I also plopped the small Marigo VTS dot on the face of the MC-3...this matches the VTS dot kit on the tonearm.   I hate to admit it but the dot made the sound  sweet.     there was a tinge to the high frequencies that i figured was due to limited dialing in of the adjustments - it disappeared in an instant.    I have not adjusted VTA from the AT440MLa and have the VTF set at 1.8grams.

The EAR 834 & MC-3 combo simply destroys my AT440MLA, CI Audio Vpp-1/VAC-1 combo in every single variable.  Its quiet too...      I guess that for the $ it better, but the degree of change tells me i still have a lot to experience with vinyl playback.

What's all the fuss with LOMC?  where do the gripes come from???    Seems like Mother's Milk to these young ears.  I think having tubes in the phono stage are good for my SS system too.


So who is next?   and how long do you mind waiting???!!!!!   

[lcrim]

That MC-3 led me to a Benz Micro Glider  L2.  After having the MC-3 and hearing that huge image I figured that 22 years must have brought some progress.  The family sound is impressive.  I tried putting a MM back in and it lasted about 5 minutes. 
I have been using a Jolida JD-9 phonostage w/ the Glider and used it with the MC-3 as well and that's a very workable and nice sounding combination at a reasonable price point.  A LO Benz Ace can be had for a bit less.  If you're like me it will be hard to accept going back.  You have pretty much verified my own feelings about phono cartridges.

[TheChairGuy]

Matt - very cool, bro - I'm glad you're stoked! 

I was so impressed how that cartridge is made....it simply slayed anything I've ever had in my hands.  The threading was mucho helpful for mounting.

Have you had any hi-output moving coils in your rig?  I can't remember what you had past the Grado Gold and AT440MLa 

All moving coils point to the deficiencies/differences of most (maybe all?)  moving magnets...a bit slower in transients, a bit (maybe, a lot) less extended in the treble, yadda, yadda.  I just haven't gotten one that sounds natural...like music as I hear it.  I think it might exist....but, for me, the Grado Green with Plast-i-lator, Longhorn, damped coils,  tonearm vertically and horizontally damped, and a line stylus from a G1+ model is the ticket.  It consistently sounds more real than anything else ever auditioned.

No one is perfect by any means....the Grado has the deficiencies that I can live with most easily, that's all. I think all that I've done for and to it has been critically to milking the best from it and lessening it's deficiencies.  So-so and odd tracking and all...it still sounds most like music to me.

3 cheers for woodsyi....a great guy to allow now 3 of us to experience the varied delights of moving coil sound 

[gooberdude]

I think i'm gonna follow Larry and save for the Glider L2.     The AT440MLa just sounds strained to me now...


Woodsyi, if you haven't yet...please clarify your position with Benz and give yourself a raise.  heck of a salesman!!!!


in all seriousness, the MC-3 is a HUGE departure from what i'm used too.     is a cheap MM cartridge like using training wheels or what???

[TheChairGuy]

Tres cool  - whatever floats one's boat (unless it's child pornography or other sinister thing  )

Don't toss your MM...you never know when and if you're hearing on the subject changes.  It's how I find myself with 11 cartridges now - each quite different in attributes (some having very few, frankly) - but the 'what if later' question arises every so often.

Your probably hearing the superior electrical attributes of moving coils at work - vastly lower inductance (less coil noise and better treble extension) and less DC resistance (more signal passes thru) than almost any moving iron/magnet.  But, you might later hear it's (inherently) compromised mechanical system.  Most vinyl-philes don't hear the mechanical issues...hence the reason MC's are largely preferred. It's a tradeoff that takes 'prisoners' on each side 

It's the only piece of 'gear' that you can hold 11 of and it fit in a shoebox.  If they took up more room, I'd not have 11 about.

[ricmon]

I think I'm gonna follow Larry and save for the Glider L2.     The AT440MLa just sounds strained to me now...


Woodsyi, if you haven't yet...please clarify your position with Benz and give yourself a raise.  heck of a salesman!!!!


in all seriousness, the MC-3 is a HUGE departure from what i'm used too.     is a cheap MM cartridge like using training wheels or what???

I'm sure the Glider will provide tons of enjoyment.  But you may want to concider the Sumiko Blackbird.  It's my first MC cart and I have pretty much stop listing to Cd's.  All the lowlevel detail and intimacy just puts my digital front end to shame.

[gooberdude]

Good Call Rick....

One of the thoughts that have been circling in my head has been the whole CD vs. Vinyl debate.    For me, there never has been much of a debate...i just like the sound of vinyl more.   With a LOMC cart though (and proper phono stage) there should've never been a debate in the 1st place...    vinyl sounds better whereas CD is simple to use.    debate ended!    loads more information pops out now, voice inflections, background noises and sound effects too.  i think that i'm finally hearing all there is in these recordings.  the ticks & pops on my LP's are really rare, but seem to have dropped off completely with the MC-3.     maybe the tubes are to blame???

anyways, i've never experienced a cleaner or clearer analog sound.   most amazing though is that it comes with bass.  deep & visceral and real...      i was completely expecting performance more geared toward Orchestral works or Jazz, not letting Beck and the Beastie Boy's freak me out.    Even though the mids were already quite nice, adding the vibe draining mapleshade tweaks has brought out a new level to the 'realism' aspect - tightens up the bottom end too.   

Is it safe to say that when people talk of mushy bass with tube gear, they are talking about amps specifically?   

I won't ever toss my older cartridges, variety is the spice of life.  the vast ocean of difference between the Grado Gold or AT & this LOMC is a lot more than i originally thought though.    Its also gonna be a few months before i can afford to upgrade - i have no choice.      Making CD's from my LP's is a hobby and who knows??   a MM cart and SS stage might work better in this regard...   i hope to give this set-up a try though before shipping Woodsyi's gear out.  my guess is the tubes might add some noise.


the construction of the MC-3 is wild, with the tiny screws in the chassis and all metal construction....it really looks like jewelry.   shame on all mfgrs for not keeping with the threaded tops.   its an invitation for us to get ferrous material close to the windings.  no good.

to date i've only had 4 cartridges on my table.   Grado Gold, AT 440MLa, Ortofon Super 10 & Woodsyi's MC-3.     Up until this expereince i liked the AT 440MLa a lot, but have lots of respect for the Grado sound too.   The Gold is the party cartridge...

[TheChairGuy]

Is it safe to say that when people talk of mushy bass with tube gear, they are talking about amps specifically?   

That's what I've found...vinyl or CD front end, tube amp or preamp....unless the amp or preamp has regulated power supplies.  Then, and only then, tube-generated bass takes on a slam factor more akin to SS gear. It also makes the tubes quieter and contributes to longer life (for less noise long term).

Some say there are downsides to the purity of the tube sound this route...I don't personally hear them.  It;s just better this way, I feel.

Enjoy, brother Matt 

[ricmon]

Is it safe to say that when people talk of mushy bass with tube gear, they are talking about amps specifically?   

That's what I've found...vinyl or CD front end, tube amp or preamp....unless the amp or preamp has regulated power supplies.  Then, and only then, tube-generated bass takes on a slam factor more akin to SS gear. It also makes the tubes quieter and contributes to longer life (for less noise long term).

Some say there are downsides to the purity of the tube sound this route...I don't personally hear them.  It;s just better this way, I feel.

Enjoy, brother Matt 

I'm using an AVA TR-7 with Telefunken tubes in the phono section.  I cant say for sure but this hybrid design works pretty well.  Lot of slam in the bass, a top end that just goes on for ever (not to mention the usual mid range glow/purity of tubes).  I suspect that the SS back end of the AVA hybrids do contribute to that SS type slam you are referring too.

[TheChairGuy]

Ric,

Frank AVA uses lots of hi-current regulators in his designs (new ones, at least)...greatly contributing to that slam factor, likely.  Even his pure tube units are likely to avoid mushy tube bass.

[lcrim]

If I were in the market for a phono stage (I like the two I have) I would check out the Hagerman MC Cornet which includes the Piccolo headamp.  It features adjustable gain and loading and the reports are that it is very quiet.  It does have a DIY ambiance but even if he builds it for you its a grand, less if you can solder.
I do like the Benz cartridges.  If you like the workmanship on the MC-3, you will be stunned by the Glider.  22 years of development does add a degree of refinement to those huge images.

[gooberdude]

What gets me in addition to the size of the images is just how many there are...    I've had most of my LP collection for years, say 5 years at most, and background instruments like bongos or shakers or tambourines are right up front with the Benz.   And the musicians makin' that noise have their own space in my L/R too.  Ever since i've been spinning much of this info has been hidden or jumbled together, but how?    Does the Vpp-1 hide it?   Do the MM cartridges????   

My vote goes for the cartridge and nothing else.   This is kinda why i listened to the EAR for 5 nights before sticking the MC-3 in the mix.    In some ways, the VPP-1 can run head-to-head with the EAR.  In no way can my stable of cartridges do what the MC-3 does though...   Its like an Exacto knife and i've only been able to use the kids safety scissors with rounded tips (and round paper!).


i can't remember what i was listening to last night, but it donned on me that for the 1st time the wall of sound in my L/R was thick with musicians, the gap from speaker-to-speaker simply filled to the rim with people & sounds.    Not in terms of tone, but in terms of recreating people on stage, i'd say the MC-3 presentation is lush...as in rainforrest lush where there's 'stuff' everywhere.

Again, this really takes me off guard as i thought that was why some guys migrated to MM, after doing the LOMC thing.   they wanted 'more'.