woodsyi's Benz MC-3 cartridge

woodsyi · « **Reply #20 on:** 13 May 2007, 01:36 am »

TCG,

I don't have any documents on th MC3 so I am going by literature on glider and ruby carts. Optimum tracking force is 1.8 to 2. Recommended loading is 500 to 47k. Biggest thing may be matching the arm. Benz MCs generally have moderately low compliance meaning you need a moderate to heavy mass tonearm. VTA is 20 to 22 degrees. After that, I find them to be in accurate camp and I really like mating them to a tuby phonostage. Right now I am listening to Superhemp - Wavelength Duetto with WE 300bs -- Modwright SWLP (500 ohm load) -- Oracle/sme4 -- Ruby 3. It's a good combination.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #21 on:** 13 May 2007, 01:55 am »

wow - 500 to 47K - I AM way off. Yikes.

That alone could change things rather drastically.

My arm is one of those light/medium S-type ones typical of Japanese decks of the late-70's and 80's. But, this particular one model I have is internally oil damped vertical AND horizontal planes, so it's pretty much a match for any cartridge because of it. That's probably why the ensemble performs much higher than the original cost would indicate (that, and excellent speed control that comes with quartz lock, servo drives)....any and every cartridge is a match for it.

Wow tho...the loading could be critically off - for sure. Dang I don't have anything higher than 200ohm available to me

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #22 on:** 13 May 2007, 12:15 pm »

I think quite a few people are getting disillusioned with their cartridge choices and I think it's due to a loading issue. I was about to give my cousin this new Empire 750 LTD I got but he said he wasn't interested in vinyl. Then I recalled Kevin saying that the Empire's looked like they had ex-Stanton engineers on the team. So...since Stanton's load around 75K I flipped the loading in my Monolithic from 47K to 75K and the sound became wonderful!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #23 on:** 13 May 2007, 02:49 pm »

Doesn't surprise me that Stanton engineers migrated to Empire.....Plainview (L.I) and Garden City (L.I.) are only about 20 minutes from one another. I think Ortofon was based on LI, too, back then....would doubt some engineers migrated there to come up with the VMS-series cartridges.

Getting the gain right (or enough, rather than too little) seems a bit more crtitical than loading, but loading nonetheless too much overlooked.

I think all of this tweeking is why us vinyl-istas will forever find ourselves a small minority in audiophool-dom. Who the hell has time for this crap anymore (I work from home, so I'm rather fortunate that way)...unless you make a serious investment in time to learn it all. 25 years ago it was a very different world with more time....a paucity of cellphones (certainly no Blackberry's

), no computers, no rival formats like CD and MP3, cable TV wasn't as prevalent and TIVO wasn't even a gleam in anybody's eyes. Okay, we had Pong, but not Nintendo, PlayStation, XBox to draw our attentions away. (At least in US) we often worked for one or two companies our entire lives, our health benefits were paid for.....and we, on average, worked less hours in a week and vacationed more (fully paid).

Fact is, despite the superiority of certain facets of vinyl sonics, we will forever be a small band of heretics tweeking away.

Sad, but true

Allright, end of diatribe, back to woodsyi's Benz MC-3 cartridge.......

lcrim · « **Reply #24 on:** 13 May 2007, 03:30 pm »

I used the MC-3 w/ both the Jolida JD-9 loaded @ 100 ohms and the Eastern Electric MiniMax loaded @ 47 ohms and it sounded the same to both me and Kevin.
In my experience, as long as you get enough loading so that there is no ringing, all the rest of this is of little concern. The MC-3, even @ 22 yrs old provides really extraordinary playback. As a result of hearing it, I got a new Glider L2, there is a similar family sound. The Ace is also available in LO and is significantly cheaper but I've not heard it. The less expensive carts in their line are made in Japan under contract. The cost of entry to this level of playback, is not cheap but it can be reasonable if you do your research.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #25 on:** 14 May 2007, 10:31 pm »

The MC-3 has a eeny-weeny stylus shape - either vdh or Gyger (I think). These are buggers to get right.

Well, the cantilever leans a bit to it's right. I didn't factor that in to the azimuth adjustment. I made the cartridge ruler straight in it's headshell.

Nuh, uhhhhhhh

I needed to overcompensate by shifting the cartridge a bit in the headshell so the tip sits closer to parallel with the grooves. I'm not even sure I've dialed it in 100% correct as it is, but it relieved the Benz of a tizzyness it had. Turned out, it was probably tracking distortion amplified by it's extreme stylus shape.

It's playing much nicer today after that move. Tracking or downforce seems to get all the press, but I've always found azimuth (especially with hyper ellipticals, Shibata, Line, vdH and Gyger shapes) to be a lot more important to dial in exactly right. If I'm within 0.1 gram of tracking force it's fine either way, but the most minute difference in azimuth changes can change very bad to absolutely good to my ears.

But, that's just me.....

woodsyi · « **Reply #26 on:** 15 May 2007, 01:14 am »

Yeah, it was already listing when I got it. I had a tiny wood shaving that I used to compensate for the lean. You are right about the pampering vinyl need to get it to sound pretty but then pretty girls are always more maintenance. You don't want an easy girl, do you?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #27 on:** 15 May 2007, 01:23 am »

Quote from: woodsyi on 15 May 2007, 01:14 am

You don't want an easy girl, do you?

If my wife of 15 mostly great years would allow it - yes, I would

lcrim · « **Reply #28 on:** 15 May 2007, 01:54 am »

I noticed the cant in the cantilever and did mention it to you, but it seemed to track just fine. Neither Kevin nor I heard anything like what you describe. The stylus appeared to contact the groove wall squarely. The stock headshell on a Technics doesn't allow for azimuth adjustments, there's a pricey one from Sumiko that does permit this.
I had no idea of the output or tracking weight but did end up @ 1.8 gms and it probably was a little tail down, antiskating was set slightly lower, but I did share all of this. The hydraulic damping on the Technics also contributes to good tracking. Also, once dialed in I compared it to a number of cartridges; the AT OC-9 , the Ortofon MC-20 Super MKII, the Benz Glider L2 which is the only which I preferred to it, but hey there must of been some progress in 22 years. I'm listening to the Glider as I write this, the others have been sold, which says it all. I think you're overanalyzing but chacon a son gout.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #29 on:** 15 May 2007, 02:16 am »

Actually, I'm trying to describe the various facets of my extended listening time with it so I can refer to it later (the web is great for that)....while at same time perhaps provide some insight to/for others contemplating a similar move to LOMC's.

So, I am analyzing it.....but it's a crap-shoot whether I'm overanalyzing it. I'm not up at night dwelling on it, so I'd say analyzing rather than overanalyzng, Lar

It sure has resolve and snap but at least yet, it doesn't quite replicate music the way I hear it. That doesn't mean I have golden ears or anything (I honestly think, quite average actually), it's just my opinion thus far. Dialing in the right geometry and all else contributes to getting it just a bit closer to reality. The madness must and will stop somewhere.

I tried Wane/Bolder Cable's K & K transformer he sent....and it wasn't up to the task of amplifying amply

I think my MM stage is only 38db; the 20db of the transformer is not enough to drive 0.35mv output of the Benz. Wayne - I haven't tried soldering in 20+ years, I'm not gonna' make your $$$$ my test case to gain 26db available within.

The Benz needs about 62 - 65db gain to sound right in my system. Near as I can tell, my Mitsui has 64db or so gain in the MC section.

doug s. · « **Reply #30 on:** 16 May 2007, 04:17 am »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 14 May 2007, 10:31 pm

The MC-3 has a eeny-weeny stylus shape - either vdh or Gyger (I think)...

this cartridge has an elliptical stylus. benz was a leader in elliptical stylus mfr. even their top cartridges had eliptical styli until relatively recently, when they started using the fritz geiger & dynascan fine-line type styli.

which is why i personally won't use one, regardless of how good it sounds. only fine-line type styli on my records, now...

ymmv,

doug s.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #31 on:** 16 May 2007, 05:33 am »

Ah, right you are, doug (just looked it up myself)

Still, it sounds better with the stylus lilt overcompensated for by wiggling the cartridge body to the right place. Perhaps if it was a vdh or Gyger, it would have sounded awful even the slightest bit off to begin with.

I read somewhere that the rationale for Sumiko making only ellipticals is that so few take the time to dial in the right line in the groove, it being so super critical with these extreme elliptical designs, that they just use ellipticals so that no one needs to fuss with the alignment terribly much at all.

I'm with you tho, Doug - a strong preference for the better tracking (less distortion, overall) of the more extreme shapes.

doug s. · « **Reply #32 on:** 16 May 2007, 02:32 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 16 May 2007, 05:33 am

Ah, right you are, doug (just looked it up myself)

Still, it sounds better with the stylus lilt overcompensated for by wiggling the cartridge body to the right place. Perhaps if it was a vdh or Gyger, it would have sounded awful even the slightest bit off to begin with.

I read somewhere that the rationale for Sumiko making only ellipticals is that so few take the time to dial in the right line in the groove, it being so super critical with these extreme elliptical designs, that they just use ellipticals so that no one needs to fuss with the alignment terribly much at all.

I'm with you tho, Doug - a strong preference for the better tracking (less distortion, overall) of the more extreme shapes.

it's not only the better tracking i am interested in. the fine-line styli have greater surface area contact, which translates to less wear on the winyl.

doug s.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #33 on:** 18 May 2007, 04:55 pm »

The awesome Mr. 'woodsyi' has further loaned me his spare phono preamp.....the esteemable EAR 834P (3 x 12AX7....currently Sovtek 12AX7LPS')

I have to say the MC-3 sounds better in it, overall. It doesn't have quite the snap dynamics it does loaded into my Mitsui (SS) preamp...but the rising treble is better managed. My Mitsui is loaded at 10 ohm; I've read the EAR is loaded from factory at 500ohm. I hear, variously, that Benz's should be loaded from 200-500ohms

So, I'm pretty sure my phono preamp is good.....it just goes to prove that loading issue with MC cartridges is a far more critical than with MM/MI's. I still go by (Joe Grado's) the assertion that MC's are electrically superior devices...with problematic mechanical issues that are impossible to fully overcome. He choose Moving Irons as the best compromise, tho he is widely credited with invention of the Moving Coil; I'm still not so sure what side of the fence I sit on that issue

Still, it sound less natural or tactile than both Grado's I own....and possibly the ADC XLM Mk. III, too. Interestingly, all moving iron designs. I also own an ADC TRX-1, also moving iron, that doesn't float my boat....so it's clearly not just the design, but the process of reaching the end by the designer, too.

A fascinating learning experience for me...in a very geeky kinda' way

lcrim · « **Reply #34 on:** 18 May 2007, 06:04 pm »

Conventional wisdom w/ MC's has been that loading beyond 10X the internal resistance has no effect. MC's in the main vary between 3 - 6 ohms internal resistance. In light of that, that there is no measurable difference, what do suspect is changing at these higher loadings?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #35 on:** 18 May 2007, 07:02 pm »

Beats me, Larry...but most LOMC's are well higher than 3-6ohms internal resistance. The Denon's are 40, the ATOC9II is 12 ohms, I know. Benz numbers are all higher than 3-6 ohm (today's lineup, that is).

Banz, like so many others, don't give yo Inductance figures...so you're nearly always guessing at correct loading. Only a rare few of any make give you inductance figures to use to accurately figure out where to load them

The only LOMC that have super low resistance like 3-6ohms seem to be the ultra-low output ones...down in the under-0.2mv range.

However, I bought a Pickering XLZ-7500-S Mk. II recently (a MM) with 0.33mv output that has only 3 ohms of resistance.

Moving coils are more remarkable for their inductance figures versus similar outputted MM/MI's. Lower inductance lead to quieter coils, amplified 60db+, is why MM/MI's of any output relative to similarly market positioned MC's are often quoted as 'veiled', but with more 'body' (lower internal resistance passes more signal).

Really, the more I learn and sort the the mumbo-jumbo about cartridges....I think what comes out is 60% electrical, 30% mechanical and 10% perception on the part of the listener (or interaction of downstream components).

MC's are mechanically challenged; MI and MM's are electrically challenged. How we perceive them and how the designer deals with eaches shortcomings tilts one in favor of another. It's not synergy for the most part...it's just realities at work

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #36 on:** 19 May 2007, 05:15 pm »

wow, I can't get over how much the Benz sound now mated to the EAR phono pre. Very, very fluid and I'm not noticing any annoying high frequency etch (as there surely was previously)

One or more tubes must be on their way out, or just plain noisy, as after a good hour it's a little loud in silent passages on MC setting....but it's still pretty good

If there is any MC etch inherent in the design, the gentler-on-the-ear tubes are buffering it nicely.

I'm using th EAR as standalone amp run right into my amps as I value simplicity like that in systems.

MC's may well be mechanically challenged, but a good designer and proper resistive loading can eliminate a lot of them.

I'm pretty sure it's not that the EAR is vastly better than my Mitsui (different, not necessarily better), it's just that the Mitsui is loaded at 10 ohms (almost an open circuit without significant damping) and the EAR at 500 ohms (I've read).

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #37 on:** 15 Jul 2007, 12:56 pm »

Long ago woodsyi (Rim) sent this neat cartridge to me....and now it needs a new (temporary) home. lcrim and I have both enjoyed it....is there someone else that wants to hear it? Whoever you are, you'll have to be cleared by woodsyi as it's his cartridge.

Also, the EAR 834P preamp I have here...also woodsyi's. So, if you don't have the MC gain needed already there, the EAR can be shipped along with the cartridge as a suitable tandem.

If interested, you can PM me your address, et al....and I'll run it by woodsyi for good measure.

JoshK - did you mention a while back you'd like a stab at hearing it / them?

John / TCG

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #38 on:** 17 Jul 2007, 02:50 pm »

YO!

Nobody would like to try a low-output moving coil cartridge that cost $1500.00 new from Benz-Micro some 20 years ago - for nuthin' but the promise to 'woodsyi' (Rim) that you won't screw it up...or if you do, you work out some $$ settlement on the matter? This is better than any dealer will or has ever offered as woodsyi has a bunch of cartridges and seems generally lenient on time for audition (I've had this for months now and he seems completely nonplussed over it

- I don't think he's a terribly compulsive fellow)

All you dudes having tried nothing but moving magnets or high output moving coils....this is an opportunity to see what all the audiophile fuss has been about re:LOMC's for the past 25-30 years aa

Thx, John

woodsyi · « **Reply #39 on:** 17 Jul 2007, 04:23 pm »

TCG,

I am compulsive.

But mostly toward buying gear.

I am not looking for any financial recompense if the cart dies. It's had a long life. It will go out in glory. So you registered AC members, feel free to audition a low output MC with a respectable phonostage in EAR 834p. There are much better ones out there, but this combo will give you an inkling of what LOMC does. Just keep posting your impressions. Happy listening.