Squeezebox 3 several questions for the experts...

nicksgem10s · « **on:** 24 Apr 2007, 02:25 am »

I am asking for opinions and advice from owners of different Squeezebox configurations.

I have been following all the different SB3 threads on this forum and also on Slimdevices own forum hoping to find the direction I want to head in.

I understand that upgrading to a linear power supply seems to be agreed upon by pretty much everyone who has posted on the threads I have read. I don't believe I will be spending the kind of $$$ on a ps that I have seen mentioned close to $1,000. I will be looking for suggestions for other linear power supplies that are available or can be built.

I don't have any diy experience or electrical background but want to learn and I am young and fairly sharp so I am sure I can learn. I have a local audio buddy who modifies equipment and has built various power supplies in the past. I do not know his level of expertise so I hate to rely on him only but am sure he could offer some basic knowledge.

I am starting from scratch so I have to decide if option 1: analog mods to the SB3

or
option 2: digital mods to the SB3 with Paradisea DAC, Monarchy M24, or other DAC

I have some very high standards for digital playback in my system and currently own a Consonance CD120 that has been modified and has beaten some digital that cost thousands more. I am looking to come as close to my current quality level or exceed that if possible with the SB3.

Does anyone think that a complete diy newbie can successfully learn to accomplish these goals with some help both online and in person?

I won't be upset if someone says this is too difficult for a person in my shoes to try for a first project. I need some real world opinions and advice.

I do not own a DAC currently so I would be willing to look at picking one up and modifying the digital output on the SB3. I would like to choose the route that will offer the highest quality level.

I will be using the SB3 in a system that consists of the following: Red Wine Audio Signature 70 monoblock amplifiers, Salk HT3 Veracity speakers, Consonance bi-wire speaker cable, Grover S interconnects. I already have my entire music collection on a Wiebetech external hard drive and am setup for wireless at home.

I am dreaming of the convenience factor that the SB3 provides and just wonder how far the quality level can take me. The idea of being able to access my entire collection without leaving the sweet spot is very enticing.

I appreciate any advice or direction that you can provide. I have read everything I can find online regarding the SB3 and available power supplies and modifications. I have also read all the available reviews such as enjoythemusic.

Thanks in advance for your help and guidance.

Nick

Daygloworange · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 03:47 am »

Here are my opinions. I have a fully analog modded SB 3 (Sonicap/Sonicap Platinum bypass, no Bybees)by Bolder Cable. I also have the Bolder modded Elpac linear power supply.

Number one, it sounds really, really good as a transport.

Number two, I had on loan to me, one of the older Bolder Cable PS's (called the Rev1) for a while. There was a definite difference in performance between this and my Elpac. There seemed to be more detail and resolution in both the highs and lows with the Rev1, but at the expense of seeming somewhat less full bodied in overall sound, and a little fatiguing after a while. My setup was SB3 run direct into an ATI 1202 SS power amp into GR Research OB 5 speakers. (As a side note, I also had the Sig 70's in my system for a couple of weeks.)

Other people who I've talked too who have had different PS's (including the older Rev1) who are now running the Ultimate PS II say that it is a much better and fuller sounding PS for the SB. If I'm not mistaken, the basic layout of the two PS's are very similar, but different brands (and specs)of parts are used, and it's this that makes the difference.

So depending on how you value your time, and how much you like to experiment and try out combinations, you could certainly go the DIY route. Although there are certainly a lot of threads out there to steer you in certain directions, and I possess good soldering skills, it's not something I'm inclined to do. I would only consider doing it if I was to build 2 power supplies and be able to compare them head to head. Again, something I'm not inclined to consider doing.

As far as the mods to the SB. The consensus around AudioCircle seems to be that the analog mods sound better than the digital mods, no matter what DAC you might have.

FWIW, If you price out the parts in the Bolder modded SB 3, you would probably see that the fee Wayne charges to perform the service of modding, is a relatively modest one.

Cheers

GBB · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 02:16 pm »

Quote from: Daygloworange on 24 Apr 2007, 03:47 am

Here are my opinions. I have a fully analog modded SB 3 (Sonicap/Sonicap Platinum bypass, no Bybees)by Bolder Cable. I also have the Bolder modded Elpac linear power supply.

Number one, it sounds really, really good as a transport.

. . .

As far as the mods to the SB. The consensus around AudioCircle seems to be that the analog mods sound better than the digital mods, no matter what DAC you might have.

I've got to disagree - to me it's very clear that the digital modded SB3 driving a good quality DAC is better than an analog modded SB3.
Of course, your mileage may vary.

---Gary

woodsyi · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 02:47 pm »

Well, I am not sure I would ever say consensus on an audio gear evaluation.

I have Bolder SB2s which have same functionality as the SB3s. I think digital out to my DAC from Bolder digital mod with gold Bybee is the best for my ears. Having said that, analog out from a Bolder analog mod with silver Bybees feeding my amps via a Burson buffer without a preamp (single source) is also very good. When you consider the price difference between my modified Northstar DAC and a burson Buffer, SB/Burson buffer combo gives you a lot more bang for the buck. I would also add that I am are not talking about much of a difference at this point. It may just come down to a difference of taste in music. Both are good even if I prefer one over the other.

F-100 · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 03:09 pm »

Quote from: Daygloworange on 24 Apr 2007, 03:47 am

As far as the mods to the SB. The consensus around AudioCircle seems to be that the analog mods sound better than the digital mods, no matter what DAC you might have.

I have to disagree too. I've listened to both analog mods and digital + external DAC for several months now and the analog mod sound much less detail and resolution than the digital + external DAC. Another additional feature of using an external DAC with tube buffer like the Paradisea DAC give you a nice rich sound and also the capability of tube rolling.

ctviggen · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 03:33 pm »

I have to disagree with the disagreers. I have a Bolder modified SB2 with both analog and digital mods. I like the analog output better than the digital output to my Ack Dack 2.0. I think the analog has more detail and resolution, and simply sounds more real, than does the digital out to the Ack. In fact, I'm going to be selling the Ack, as soon as I find the time to do so.

It must depend on your DAC. Oh yeah, I'm using a Bolder cable digital cable with a bybee.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 03:43 pm »

I hesitate to get involved, but I am firmly in the camp of Bolder mods, analog outputs.

BUT, one major difference would seem to be that I use my SB directly into my amps, no pre. For folks who use preamps, I cannot comment, but there does seem to be more of a variety of opinion in that case.

Both camps certainly seem to have happy people, if that helps!

Double Ugly · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 03:46 pm »

Quote from: ctviggen on 24 Apr 2007, 03:33 pm

It must depend on your DAC.

I may also depend on the player.

At one time, Wayne was able to take the SB2 a little farther mod-wise than the SB3 due to having more room with which to work. That may have changed, but I haven't heard otherwise. The difference (read improvement) in my system was easily noticeable, and an even bigger surprise was the improvements wrought when I connected it directly to my amps.

-Jim, another analog-out fan

miklorsmith · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 03:58 pm »

ct - the Ack! is a nice DAC but has been left in the dust. It bettered the battery Monica 2 I had, as well as a few-generations-old SN that stopped by, but is not close to the Altmann and Lessloss DACs. I'm sure those latter two will be outclassed in the next few years too.

tomjtx · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 04:17 pm »

I've had the chance to listen to the full mod bolder with ultimatePSU prototype.

I didn't hear a difference between the elpac or the ultimate through a good dac.

The Transporter with balanced outs was the best sounding in my system, followed by the elpac >stock SB3> LavryDAC10.
A very close second to the TP.
The analog bolder wasn't as good as the 2 above. IMO

All the above were tested both blind and sighted.
IMO your most cost effective upgrade is a stock elpac feeding a high quality DAc such as the Lavry, PS Audio or Benchmark (and many others)

There is a lot of info on the slim forums re DACS and mods.

ctviggen · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 04:38 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith on 24 Apr 2007, 03:58 pm

ct - the Ack! is a nice DAC but has been left in the dust. It bettered the battery Monica 2 I had, as well as a few-generations-old SN that stopped by, but is not close to the Altmann and Lessloss DACs. I'm sure those latter two will be outclassed in the next few years too.

Oh I don't doubt that the Ack isn't the cream of the crop. I've heard other dacs that are way better, but usually more expensive too. I like the sound from my SB2 so much that I'm not in a hurry to upgrade (not to mention that with a baby on the way, I can't afford to upgrade). At some point, there's diminishing returns. Right now, when I play Johnny Cash on my system, it's as if he's sitting in the room with me. When other singers join him, I can hear exactly where they are in the room. I can hear JC's vocal wavering. I can understand that a new DAC might make this even better, but the costs would be another several thousand to achieve probably not that much more level of detail and liveliness. In one of the raves I attended, someone brought an 8,000 DAC. It was good, very good. It just didn't seem like it was worth the cost to upgrade over the other DACs that were there. Anyway, it all depends on what you want and your situation. Right now, I like the sound I'm getting and don't really feel a need for an upgrade.

gitarretyp · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 07:11 pm »

For those using a dac, are you using a preamp or dac straight to amp controlled via the digital volume in the sb? If using a pre, have you tried dac direct to amp?

woodsyi · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 07:16 pm »

You would need a volume control on the DAC which I don't.

gitarretyp · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 08:50 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 24 Apr 2007, 07:16 pm

You would need a volume control on the DAC which I don't.

Nope, if you set the sb's volume to the digital control in slimserver, it will adjust the digital out volume --ie, the dac's volume. Give it a try.

Nick B · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Apr 2007, 11:06 pm »

My analog modded SB2 with Aberdeen PS is very, very good sound for the money. I was quite hesitant to pay $600 for a PS, but the improvement was significant. I have not tried a dac, but then again I was interested in keeping my system simple for now and going straight to the amp yields the great results that many AC'ers indicated it would

nicksgem10s · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Apr 2007, 05:39 am »

Thanks for all the replies and opinions so far. Please keep them coming.

I have a brand new SB3 on its way to me now from Slimdevices.

Has anyone paired the SB3 with Monarchy's newest tube dac the M24?

I would be interested to know how they work together as I have read about the M24 performing on a world class level

if fed from a high quality transport. Will the SB3 with digital mods and power supply fit the bill?

What are the power supply options besides the Bolder Ultimate II for $750 without cables?

I am definitely going to get a power supply and would love to know all available choices. Is anyone else building and offering them for sale on a smaller scale for a lesser price?

Thanks to everyone and I will be sure to post my results in the near future. I am open to any suggestions that come up.

DSK · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Apr 2007, 05:43 am »

Already a lot of discussion on this topic here ....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=39944.0

JLM · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Apr 2007, 09:38 am »

At what point does power supply upgrades not matter if you have good/clean power to start with?

I'm in a new house with all 20 amp curcuits and 12 gauge wiring, in the country, with our own underground service and transformer, all new appliances, and dedicated audio circuits (one per hospital grade cryo'd duplex receptacle) that are tied into a separate ground. And I couldn't hear a difference between battery powered SB3/amp and A/C powered.

zybar · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Apr 2007, 11:12 am »

Quote from: JLM on 25 Apr 2007, 09:38 am

At what point does power supply upgrades not matter if you have good/clean power to start with?

I'm in a new house with all 20 amp curcuits and 12 gauge wiring, in the country, with our own underground service and transformer, all new appliances, and dedicated audio circuits (one per hospital grade cryo'd duplex receptacle) that are tied into a separate ground. And I couldn't hear a difference between battery powered SB3/amp and A/C powered.

The upgraded power supplies aren't for trying to improve your AC power from the wall. So the fact that you have a new house doesn't matter.

I will let somebody more technical explain why the upgraded power supply makes such a big difference in the SB's performance.

George

opaqueice · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 Apr 2007, 02:35 pm »

Quote from: nicksgem10s on 25 Apr 2007, 05:39 am

What are the power supply options besides the Bolder Ultimate II for $750 without cables?

I am definitely going to get a power supply and would love to know all available choices. Is anyone else building and offering them for sale on a smaller scale for a lesser price?

Most people that believe changing the power supply makes a difference point to the fact that the stock SB PSU is a switch-mode power supply, which means it's a source of radio-frequency noise. Whether that makes an audible difference in your system (it doesn't in mine) probably depends on many variables, but in any case if that's what you're concerned with you can replace the stock supply with an off-the-shelf linear supply (linear supplies are less efficient and bulkier, but do not source RF). See this thread for details:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31971&highlight=plug-and-play