isoplatmat

lcrim · « **Reply #20 on:** 30 Apr 2007, 08:15 pm »

Toka:
The black rubber pad is flat side up, I've always used it that way. The clamp is the KAB that screws into the spindle which is machined to accept it. If the shaft in the clamp were longer, it could screw in, its not blocked just not long enough. I've got a call in to Kevin about how to resolve this but it never really affected the sound, it did look cool though.
Check the manufacturers web site for info on what TT's it was used on in GB from whence it originated.

Toka · « **Reply #21 on:** 30 Apr 2007, 08:23 pm »

Thanks again!

That is exactly the sort of setup I am planning on purchasing, hence my curiosity. Please post when you hear back from Kevin, as I want to use a clamp somehow, someway.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #22 on:** 30 Apr 2007, 08:26 pm »

toka,

I have never found a clamp to work (in several TT's) but a teeny snit-ful....you're more likely to find a better use of your hard earned cash to be in the Isoplatmat, I'd think

John

Quote from: Toka on 30 Apr 2007, 08:23 pm

Thanks again! That is exactly the sort of setup I am planning on purchasing, hence my curiosity. Please post when you hear back from Kevin, as I want to use a clamp somehow, someway.

Toka · « **Reply #23 on:** 30 Apr 2007, 08:53 pm »

It didn't help even with warped records?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #24 on:** 30 Apr 2007, 09:45 pm »

toka: Makes 'em worse a lot of the times

An outer ring platter, rare indeed to find, is probably a worthwhile addition....but the center/spindle ones are mostly wasted money.

John /TCG

Marco1408 · « **Reply #25 on:** 29 Jun 2007, 12:36 am »

Quote from: lcrim

The black rubber pad is flat side up, I've always used it that way. The clamp is the KAB that screws into the spindle which is machined to accept it. If the shaft in the clamp were longer, it could screw in, its not blocked just not long enough. I've got a call in to Kevin about how to resolve this but it never really affected the sound, it did look cool though.
Check the manufacturers web site for info on what TT's it was used on in GB from whence it originated.

Hi Larry,

I'm shortly due to receive my modified KAB 1210 and live in the UK. One of the mods I'm having done is the threaded record clamp, but I also want to use an SDS mat. Why do you choose to use the thick rubber mat AND the SDS mat and not just the SDS mat alone with the clamp? I'm presuming that not being able to use the clamp will adversely affect the sound as much as adding the SDS mat benefits it, no?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Marco.

lcrim · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 Jun 2007, 02:53 am »

Hi Marco:
Not having the use of the clamp has not been a loss. I just don't hear any difference with or without it.
I did try listening with the black rubber mat off but with the isoplatmat in place and had to readjust the VTA which is no big deal w/ a 1200 and found that I prefer the sound with both mats together. I wasn't aware of any ringing from the platter prior to getting the isoplatmat but the improvement it makes is more in the nature of improved focus and microdynamics. Surface noise on records wasn' eliminated but the musical flow is so much stronger that the occasional crackle does not annoy or destroy the event as much. I regularly listen to slightly spoiled treasures w/ the isoplatmat in place that used to be ignored because of the noise.
Hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #27 on:** 29 Jun 2007, 08:09 am »

That's interesting. Best not tell Kevin his threaded record clamp does bugger all, then!

Seriously though, I'm looking forward to experimenting with mats so I can form my own thoughts on the matter. I'm not sure if using two mats together is for me, as I suspect it might not be great for the bearing, and spindle clearance could be an issue when playing 180 or 200g audiophile records that are much thicker than normal.

Yes, I'm very much looking forward to receiving the deck and intend to do a full write-up once I've had a good listen. The concept of using 1210s for hi-fi use and modifying them for the purpose is also becoming very popular in the UK and elsewhere in Europe. Hi-Fi World, a UK magazine, is doing a feature this month on a heavily modified 1210, and if the modified deck is as good as I suspect it will be, then it's going to be big news. I will certainly be promoting it on various UK audio forums and the KAB mods in particular if I like them, which I'm sure I will!

Marco.

lcrim · « **Reply #28 on:** 29 Jun 2007, 01:27 pm »

Kevin lives close by, we are friends and speak regularly. It was his suggestion to try the isoplatmat in the first place, except that he had forgotten the name. He also told me to try it with the black rubber mat over it as he has heard it before and also feels that the two in combination are the way to go. He has promised to get me a clamp w/ a sufficiently long shaft to reach the spindle. The shaft could extend beyond the bottom of the clamp and damage records so the exact length is important.
Please check back in when you have received your 1210 and share your experiences. tvad4, another member, recently migrated to a Technics 12xx TT with the damping tray and Cardas tonearm rewire from KAB and has expressed his satisfaction with the setup. There are a bunch of regular posters over on the Audio Asylum Vinyl board who are have similar setups, so a search over there would give you lots of info.
I think its cool that there is a growing interest in the UK with the Technics 12xx series. Up until recently there has been a prejudice against Direct Drive TT's in general and the Technic's 12xx in particular among US audio types. This is breaking down but its still a challenge.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #29 on:** 29 Jun 2007, 11:15 pm »

You're all my children!!!

Marco1408 · « **Reply #30 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 09:27 am »

Hi Larry,

You're lucky Kevin is close by - that's nice and handy!

With the mat thing, I'm going to experiment with various options to see what's best. I have a feeling that the SDS mat used in conjunction with 'something else' is the way to go - what that 'something else' is I'm not sure yet, but I want to be able to use the record clamp, too, so for me the thick mat is out, and I don't fancy having the spindle altered. It may be a case of using the thin Technics mat with the SDS, rather than the thick mat, or perhaps even a Funk Firm Achromat (on top) and an SDS mat underneath... I may even just like the thick mat with the record clamp and nothing else! We shall see

The article on the modified 1210 (featuring an SDS mat) in the UK magazine Hi-Fi World is out today, so I will get a copy and report on the findings there.

Marco.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #31 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 12:47 pm »

Well, I've just been to the shops and picked up this month's issue of Hi-Fi World, and the modified 1210 article has been delayed (yet again!) until next month. This has been going on for the last 3 months

However, in the letters section someone wrote in asking about possible upgrades for their 1210, and the subject of the Technics arm was mentioned, to which editor David Price replied:

Quote

Not to put too fine a point on it, the Technics arm is a cheap OEM Japanese sourced item that is made in massive volumes to low tolerances, with a cost price that might surprise you (less than a Cornish pasty at a motorway service station, I'd wager!)

Does anyone know if this is indeed the case, or if it's simply a case of ill-informed ignorance on behalf of the journalist concerned? Kevin at KAB has mentioned that the arm on the 1210 is high quality and capable of excellent performance, which I suspect, is true.

Larry or anyone else what's your take on the matter?

Marco.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #32 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 01:36 pm »

Marco,

The very nature of any direct drive machine is compromised (any TT design is - it's just choosing one and making it less offensive). Direct Drive's major failing is that the motor is attached and directly under the TT platter....sympathetic vibrations travel rather easily to your stylus from there. Having a mat or mats on top of your platter, before these sympathetic vibrations reach your stylus is a good thing for your tunes

The Isoplatmat works on the very old and sell know principle of constrained layer damping. It turns sympathetic vibrations into heat....before it migrates to your record/stylus, etc. That can only mean really good things for your playback quality if it's deigned well (and, according to our intrepid Larry/lcrim, it is

).

However, the materials of the Isoplatmat don't make for a very good interface directly in contact with your record...and another mat (be it Technics own rubber mat or some other) is usually a better choice for better sonic virtues. As well, the additional mass creates another layer for vibrations to get lost before they enter into your playback chain.

I think the idea behind the Isoplatmat would be ideally suited for use on any direct drive table...and should prove somewhat beneficial on belt drives, too (less so as they are already well isolated by use of rubber, or string belts). It's a good value at $99.00 I'd think.

btw, I'd also recommend you spray the underside of your oft-ringing platter with SoundCoat or other spray-on damping compound. I bought Dupli-Color UC103 online for $8.00. The positive effects are quite good - I highly recommend it for all. Laying down a few pounds of Plast-i-Clay to the inside of your Technics 1200 will only help additionally...although the solidity of the base is already very, very good right from the factory.

My platter is damped on the underside with a layer of the Dupli-Color, a thin layer of Plast-i-Clay, and on top several Herbie's Damping dots, on top of that an Audioquest Sorbothane mat, and on top of that a Herbie's Way Excellent mat with additional damping dots. There is likely not much sympathetic motor vibrations reaching my stylus...so the Isoplatmat would likely be redundant in my case.

I fashioned my own simple clamp/weight...but in all honestly, I have NEVER found a clamp to offer up much of a benefit to playback. A clamp looks like it should benefit playback, but it's effect has always been very slight. Damping your platter, a la Isoplatmat and other ways, is likely a far better way to spend your finite audio dollars on your turntable. That's another way of saying 'don't sweat not using a clamp, there are better ways to better your vinyl experience'

As for cheapo arms on the Technics - I doubt it. The arm has been made for 20 years and no less than 10,000 of them are made each year. They are made by the world's largest maker of electronic equipment....so they are made quite efficiently. Tho they may only cost $90 or something for you to buy a replacement, I am pretty sure they are a most decent tonearm - equivalent to many audio-phool arms built in low qty's each year and sold by little companies that need to make higher margins to merely survive. When your billing $30 billion (ie., Matsushita and JVC, it's wholly owned subsidiary) yearly you can work on lower margins than if your total business is merely $4 or 5 million (what a Rega may be grossing yearly).

It is likely any failing of the Technics 1200 and other Direct Drive machines to reach and impress audiophool audience is based on circumstancial prejudice....and the very real (sonically) downside of direct drives. Placing a motor directly below the record and attached it directly to the spindle is a very lousy idea (but, so are others for other reasons). While speed accuracy and lack of stylus drag is excellent (particularly with Servo Controlled, Quartz Regulated designs) it allows for so much vibration to migrate right into your playback chain. Damping these vibrations with the Isoplatmat and other ways is a great way measurably reduce those vibrations and greatly enhance your listening experience.

The arm, nor lack of any clamp is not the cause of the direct drive's failure to impress many...it's the design itself. But you can do a lot to minimize and/or nearly eliminate that issue and turn your TT into a world-champion with a few dollars and some elbow grease.

fyi - I own a JVC QL-F6 Direct Drive table and have owned a variety of others in my life.

John

lcrim · « **Reply #33 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 02:24 pm »

Marco:
I stated earlier that there is a prejudice against Direct Drive TT's in general and the Technics 12xx series in particular. The arm is of very high quality. The bearings are made to a tolerance that is quite a bit better than normally encountered. There is no factual basis for the editorial jibes you report. The tonearm rewire and the damping tray added by KAB remove all possible criticisms of the arm.
I've seen the innards of my 1200 during the rewire and I simply would not consider spraying any crap under the platter. While I respect my esteemed colleague's right to express his opinions I don't generally agree with many of them and usually avoid taking him to task on them. There are a number of methods to spin the platter, the extreme engineering that went into the Technics direct drive is the best I've encountered. How the isoplatmat works doesn't concern me as much as the fact that it improves the sound. Why does a 6' power chord have as dramatic an effect as it does with all the garbage wire behind it? I have decided to accept that it does, period.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #34 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 02:52 pm »

Quote from: lcrim

While I respect my esteemed colleague's right to express his opinions I don't generally agree with many of them and usually avoid taking him to task on them.

I luv you, too -

Hardhead

Toka · « **Reply #35 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 06:11 pm »

Marco,

Yep, that editorial comment is, sadly, the typical BS that has been floating around for ages. Most vocally from the British press, it seems. Its actually funny, in a way, how people keep spitting out make-believe 'facts' about the '1200 (like the notion they somehow come flying off a conveyor belt somewhere...they are, and have always been, handmade!), without even taking 2 minutes to look into the reality of it. Makes me wonder why the review is constantly 'delayed'.

Marco1408 · « **Reply #36 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 07:02 pm »

John & Icrim,

Thanks very much for the information - I don't doubt you guys are right

Don't worry, when I get my KAB-modified 1210 I'll post exactly what I think of it. I've used and heard loads of hi-end turntables in the past, so I have an excellent frame of reference for which to judge the 1210. I've done a fair bit of research into this, so I'm very confident the deck will be fantastic!

Toka,

I agree with you, however the interesting thing is David Price is a fan (and user) of a heavily-modified 1210, so his comments are not based on prejudice against direct drive T/Ts - far from it - he loves them! But he doesn't seem to be a fan of the stock tonearm... Instead he's installed an Origin Live-modified RB250, which he thinks is better. Me? I'd rather have the stock Technics arm, Cardas rewired and fluid damped by KAB. The Rega is no great shakes, IMO, particularly with my choice of cartridge: a Denon DL-103 Pro, which I think will work great in the high-mass magnesium headshell, wired with high quality Cardas headshell leads, I have ready and waiting to fit to the Technics arm on my KAB-modified SL-1210 MK5GSE.

I can't wait!

Marco.

Toka · « **Reply #37 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 07:21 pm »

Let us know how you like it!

I have a feeling most of the bad comments directed at the '1200 arm are based on the internal wiring, and not the actual arm itself...two different entities entirely!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #38 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 08:11 pm »

I have brushed my fingers adoringly at the 1200/1210 arm a few times.....it feels utterly fantastic in hand - way better than the clunky Rega 250 (which I own). That doesn't mean it's better than the Rega......it just feels rather sumptuous next to a much more expensive tonearm like the Rega (which I think sells for 3x the price).

It really feels rather substantially made...and probably is held back substantially due to it's plain-jane (stock) wiring. If there is anywhere in the whole audio chain that demands high quality OFC-or-better wiring it's the delicate link between cartridge and your preamp. No where in any other part of the system are feeble little millivolts (0.2 to 5.0 or so, typically) asked to skip over crystal boundaries, oxidation, lead solder joints and rca junctions. Within reason, doing what you can to improve any one of these things are going to benefit things.

The output from your CD player is 2.0 volts....in case it hasn't dawned on anyone (it didn't on me for a long while)...1.0 volt = 1000 millivolts. So, your typical cartridge output is some 200 to 5000x times less than the output of your typical CD player. Skrimp on the IC from your CD - but spend what you can on improving the link between your cartridge and phono section

The pay-off should be better.

But, the Isoplatmat and other platter-dampening aids work on a different level...but should and do help the final result in other ways

Marco1408 · « **Reply #39 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 09:27 pm »

Guys,

I totally agree with you about the wiring, and it's why I ordered the Cardas arm rewire as I knew it would be a major upgrade. And, hey, the stock wiring in RB250 or 300s isn't exactly 'first rate' either - plenty of room for improvement there!

I also think it's important to remember synergy. The Technics arm compliments the design principles of the deck, whereas I don't think the same can necessarily be said about the Rega. I'm quite sure though that an RB250 or 300 is much more versatile. Somehow I don't see too many Technics arms appearing on non-Technics decks!

Apart from anything else, I'm looking forward to hearing some quality direct drive-style bass, which I suspect is more authoritative than anything most wimpy-boy belt drives produce

Marco.