familiar with phono preamp

wildberger · « **on:** 16 Apr 2007, 02:46 pm »

Anyone have experience with this phono preamp: 'Audio experience Concerto tube phono preamplifier'. I've
seen it advertised on audiogon from the manufacturer. been considering a phono pre for my 'blue point special evo3 cartridge through a Rogue 66 magnum pre. Mine has a phono section, but has too much hum when gain reaches levels I play back with. I'm also considering a ciaudio vpp1, as I've had a very good experience with ciaudio dac 2.

Any feedback appreciated.. thanks -len

TONEPUB · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 03:13 pm »

The CI audio piece will probably be a great match
being solid state. Plenty of quiet there!

chriss · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 04:06 pm »

Here's a link to a review of the concerto. I had the CIAudio phono pre. I liked it better then the monolithic(both had the upgraded power supply) The CI was replaced in my system by A Grahm Slee Mark V which of course was better still. I am currently using a Bluenote Phono One which I like a lot. If you get the CIAudio you will want to upgrade the jumper from the power supply. The improvment is not subtle

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/audio_experience_e.html

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 04:18 pm »

Hi,

I wrote the review on the Concerto back in 2004.

You can get much better performance for much less $$$.

Check out the Cabridge Audio Azur 640P. A far superior choice than the Concerto, and cheaper too.

wildberger · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 05:06 pm »

Thanks to those who have offered their opinions. I suppose that it's between the ciaudio and the cambridge? Another possibility I hadn't considered (I got this from the review above) would be a 'step up' device? Know of any of reasonable quality? That would be using the Rogue pre tube phono section with a 'step-up device' so as not to reach the hum levels, hummm?

Any thoughts appreciated, thanks --len

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 05:22 pm »

A step up device is used to boost the output from a moving coil cartridge to make it suitable for use with a moving magnet only phono stage.

The Cambridge Audio 640 ($200) has both MM and MC inputs, so you will not need a step up device, unless you are using a cartridge with less than 1mV output. Usually, the more reasonably priced cartridges do not have such low output, so I think you won't have to be concerned with a step up device.

gooberdude · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 05:34 pm »

Hey Len,

the CI VPP-1 and the Cambridge are nothing alike. In the sub $500 price range there are few 'keeper' phono preamps, the VPP-1 is one of them...the other is not anywhere close. With nearly every other budget phono preamp will be hiss. there's none with the VPP-1. With nearly every will be a rounding of the bass and softening of the highs (or shrilling)...not so with the VPP-1. If you made CD's from your LP's with the Cambridge, you'd be pissed. notice that rhymes with hiss.

I've owned 5 sub $300 phono preamps incl the cambridge...the VPP-1 is in a whole 'nother league. Wait a few months & get the external PSU... analog heaven ain't too expensive!

Also, in this price range what other preamps offer external psu's? which ones have an umbilical available (RAL) from which to blast the performance way above other $1000 preamps? just the vpp-1. No other budget preamps offer much in the way of upgrades.

take my words with a grain of salt, but i've owned the vpp-1, vac-1 & the RAL umbilical a few years now. nothing in the budget category comes close except the offerings by Graham Slee.

if you don't intend to ever build up your system (make it great) the cambridge will do fine. its like the '86 Buick your grandma still drives since its pristine and only has 3400 miles on it. the VPP-1 is a high powered offshore race boat that your grannie would break her hip just climbing into, in comparison.

matt

wildberger · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 05:41 pm »

Nels, thanks for reply, Let me understand, using my blue point special evo3, that I believe outputs 2.5mv? into a rogue preamp phono that requires turning to about 2pm to reach adequate volume, at that point hum levels with no music playing are bothersome. This circumstance would not be benefited by a 'step-up device'? maybe to reduce volume control to 9 to 10? The Rogue already has the RIAA adjustment, just not enough gain? for the cartridge I use?(wrong concept of what a step-up device does??) maybe regardless, I should concentrate on a solid state phono that would use the rogue linestage ?

-len

wildberger · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 05:53 pm »

Matt, thanks, apparently you have had experience with both, and as i mentioned I love my ciaudio vda 2 that i have had for several weeks now. I am entertaining the possibilities with in my means (begins with m, as in money). I already have the ciaudio upgraded power supply so I can a/b, to hear differences. I will ponder a while longer ...thanks for input

len

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 05:53 pm »

At 2.5 mV output, your Blue Point Special should have adeqate output to run into the phono input of the Rogue "as is." Using a step up device, you run the risk of overloading the phono input, creating the opposite problem than you have now.

What I would do is use an outboard phono stage plugged into one of the other pairs of inputs on the Rogue (not the phono input.) TONEPUB is right, if you are concerned about hum/noise, go solid state. The tubes in the Rogue will warm things up anyway.

Edit: As I think further, you could go tubes with the JoLida JD-9 phono stage. Its quiet, and provides tons of flexibility, different gain settings, etc. I strongly believe this one will solve your gain issues.

wildberger · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 05:58 pm »

Nels - right on, it appears that i am leaning toward the ciaudio phono, given your and 'others' comments.

-len

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 06:36 pm »

Having never heard the CI unit, I will defer to Matt on that one. The capability to use an upgraded power supply is a big plus for the CI unit.

Regardless, I believe you will be happier than if you bought the Audio Experience unit.

lcrim · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 06:49 pm »

The Jolida JD-9 unit mentioned earlier is the best option I have heard in the under $500 price class. It is a tube buffered design which is nevertheless very quiet and also offers lots of flexibility. Should you decide to move up the scale to low output moving coil cartridges, the Jolida has the gain to accomodate it. Of course I have one, so I'm a bit suspect but the JD-9 is a terrific, inexpensive piece.

gooberdude · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 07:01 pm »

Ha!

I just read you also have the CI DAC? Get the vac-1 and a RAL umbilical and share between the 2. At that point near SOTA performance for both digital and analog will be yours for 1/10th the cost. wish I had that! the vac-1 is not a small upgrade...

you'll have a super-duper sound on the cheap and won't have to care about gear upgrades for a while.
With the Extrenal PSU and RAL umbilical there won't be a house sound to worry about either. changing power cords would be like tube rolling in that scenario.

If your Rogue preamp has tubes in it, don't get a tube phono pre. Tubes are great, too many can be a bad thing though. Most budget tube phono pre's hiss...

the Audio Experience gear ain't too shabby though. I heard a tubed preap of theirs that had been modded, most impressed for the $.

I don't mean to sound like a budget 'know-it-all' but phono preamp performance is critical to me since I archive my collection. I've tried & cried over just about all the current offerings. In the very near future i may give Promitheus Audio's phono pre a shot. For $550 and loads of options it might be another giant killer. But i'd stick the vpp-1/vac-1/RAL umbilical combo up against ANY phono preamp under $2K - $3K assuming you don't want to go LO MC. I might go that route at some point & will choose the Promi phono pre if so.

I like the VPP-1 'cuz it can grow with you. All the other budget offerings keep you at the same level - similar to buying from Wall-Mart. Mfgr's that don't allow for upgrade's do not have their finger on the pulse of the market...it must be somewhere else!

matt

chriss · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 08:11 pm »

Well, since we have a kind TNT theme goin' here, below is a link to a TNT review of the CIAudio pre.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/cia_vpp1_e.html

I agree that your best value, since you have the CI DAC, would be to buy the CI pre and then share an upgraded power supply between them. That's what I was going to do, only in reverse. I was going to buy the DAC to go with my CI pre. Thing is my Audio Alchemy CD player is adequate for as much as I use it. Which is almost never. Mostly vinyl now.

As an aside,Nels if your still with on this thread, thanks for your hard work at TNT.It was very helpful to me when I started. I had some great conversations with Scott on the phone and Dejan helped me mod my Rotel 932 via email.
About 75% of my gear has been reviewed on TNT. I always find the reviews to be honest and helpful.

In fact, I wonder where Scott is with the Slee recommendation.

Chris
in Central Florida

gooberdude · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 08:34 pm »

I think a head-to-head comparison of the VPP-1 and the Graham Slee 2SE (i think) would be a good one...

Or pit a pimped out VPP-1/VAC-1/RAL umbilical against Graham's $1000 phono pre.

to my ears & withonly 1 Graham Slee demo of few of their preamps, they have a similar tone & performance to what Dusty puts out. All the others (haven't heard a Black Cube) just fall short...

chriss · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 09:17 pm »

While the CIA was a good value and a nice sounding pre, the Slee Mark V was noticably better. I could use all the audio words but it just comes down to bettter. I had them both in my system and went back and forth and it was very clearly a better piece. Of course it should be at twice the price but as we know thats not always the case.

wildberger · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Apr 2007, 10:20 pm »

Matt- does the RAL? umbilical make a difference with the CI DAC?? any more info on where to find and how much?
already have a VAC for the DAC.

thanks- len

gooberdude · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 Apr 2007, 04:30 am »

I think its the same connection for the DAC and the VPP-1, but i could be wrong...

RAL is Revelation Audio Labs. possibly www.revelationaudiolabs.com

that little 1' cable is by far the best power cord, intercoonect or speaker cable buy that i've made in this hobby. If anyone ever wants to know if cables are important i swap out the RAL for stock. takes about 30 seconds to get a 'oh!' reaction...

no affiliation, an impressed customer though.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 Apr 2007, 05:20 am »

Totally agreed, GooberMatt...that little umbilical was waaaay more important than any power cord I ever bought (and quite of few of those have mattered...dammit

). It lifted both my CD/DAC and Phono Pre/Power Supply to new sonic levels of realism.

Something about a low inductance, shielded power cord after the power supply seems quite important. More important than placing one before the power supply...after the wall.

It really surprised me in it's abilities both times.

Quote from: gooberdude on 17 Apr 2007, 04:30 am

I think its the same connection for the DAC and the VPP-1, but i could be wrong...

RAL is Revelation Audio Labs. possibly www.revelationaudiolabs.com

that little 1' cable is by far the best power cord, intercoonect or speaker cable buy that i've made in this hobby. If anyone ever wants to know if cables are important i swap out the RAL for stock. takes about 30 seconds to get a 'oh!' reaction...

no affiliation, an impressed customer though.