Anyone using their MM De Capo I with a Subwoofer?

Paul L · « **Reply #20 on:** 18 Aug 2003, 08:28 am »

I have heard quite a few highly regarded sub but found them quite sluggish. The REL is one that impressed me and I have actually tried to import it to Canada. However, Richard Lord gave the Canadian distribution to Sumiko as well. Customers need to check out the price. Another musical sub that I have have heard has actually been mentioned by Chris. The Monitor Audio subs are designed to match their Studio series which were very fast speakers. I found the ASW110 is very musical and can match most of the speakers including the De Capos but the sub lack some impact when playing movie if anyone plan to use his/her system for movie as well. To go higher, I recommend using the ASW210 and add a plinth (not supplied) underneath it. If you go for a pair of ASW210, you can actually use them as the stand of the De Capos. I have tried this on a pair of De Capos and a pair of Duntech PCL 25 and both returned excellent result if you can play around the cross-over point and the phase.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #21 on:** 19 Aug 2003, 05:13 am »

The gentlemen I purchased the MM De Capo I's from was using them with a Soliloquy S 10c subwoofer. He seemed to like it, but I looked at the specs and the lowest you can set the crossover is 40hz. This is disconcerting to me given that I really want the De Capo's to run full range and I may be doubling up the bass and mucking up the sound.

Anyone used the Soliloquy S10c? I have a chance to buy one on the cheap and may take a chance.

doug s. · « **Reply #22 on:** 19 Aug 2003, 05:47 am »

"...This is disconcerting to me given that I really want the De Capo's to run full range..."
===================
ya yust *think* ya wanna run yer de capo's full-range.

if ya ever heard how much better they'd sound if crossed over to a passive sub w/a top-notch active x-over, then ya definitely wouldn't wanna be running 'em full-range!

relieving the de capo's of having to reproduce any frequencies below 60-70hz will only make them perform better above that frequency...

regards,

doug s.

cyounkman · « **Reply #23 on:** 19 Aug 2003, 01:44 pm »

Doug:

All things being equal, I know a lot of systems sound great using active x-overs. But for De Capo owners, it seems that a lot of the magic of the speakers comes from the 'direct' sound--no crossover to get in the way. As a result, I think DC owners start panicking at the mere mention of adding even a high-quality x-over.

Also: adding a good external x-over to a speaker that already has an internal crossover (where you've never heard the drivers connected directly to the amp) is less likely to impact the sound adversely. But I would be surprised if there wasn't some loss of transparency with electronics in front of the DC's main driver.

But I haven't tried it, obviously. And the benefits of relieving any driver of the bottom frequencies are pretty darn clear. Uh... let me know if you're in TO one day with your x-over and subs and want to play around...

doug s. · « **Reply #24 on:** 19 Aug 2003, 02:52 pm »

hi chris (and all),

yes, i know the fear of placing an additional x-over in front of a speaker. ever talk about this w/proac owners?

same issues: "i don't wanna muck up the transparency of my super-detailed speaker, & ruin the voicing..." etc, etc.

well, when using an active outboard x-over, it's essentially invisible to the speaker. sure, it can theoretically mask info, but only at the amplifier level. it's the amp that sees the x-over, not the speaker. the speaker yust sees a signal from the amp that has no low freqency info.

a relative of mine recently brought over his proac 1sc's to try in my rig. he has recorded a coupla cd's w/cuts from many of his cd's, that he uses for demos. he was amazed, as he heard details on his special demo cd that he never heard before in his system, where they're run full-range. and, he uses a s/s amp, while i'm running a tubed mesa baron. it was the amp issue, really, where he (and i) was wondering if any details would be lost. in any event, the marchand x-over certainly dint interfere... a quality active x-over at amp level will introduce so little signal degradation, that whatever it is, it will be more than made up for by freeing up the woofer from seeing that low-end signal... he's now itching to bring over his proac 2.5's.

one thing that really stands out in my system is the reproduction of upright acoustic bass fiddle. the texture & tone is really uncanny. i'm sure the subs, *and* the monitors' reduced-stress woofers are equally responsible...

while i dunno if i will ever be up in canada w/my pair of 140# subs,

it would certainly be worthwhile for you to take yer d-c's over to someone's house w/a good dedicated active x-over/passive sub system set up. in my system, where i have a pink noise generator & spectrum analyzer i can set up, it only takes a few minutes to dial in a different speaker. you may be amazed.

no, i have not had the pleasure to hear the de capo's, but the reason i follow this forun is cuz they're one of a handful of speakers i hope to audition sometime in my system. so - back atcha: if yure ever in maryland w/yer d-c's, bring 'em on by!

regards,

doug s.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #25 on:** 19 Aug 2003, 06:41 pm »

Quote

All things being equal, I know a lot of systems sound great using active x-overs. But for De Capo owners, it seems that a lot of the magic of the speakers comes from the 'direct' sound--no crossover to get in the way. As a result, I think DC owners start panicking at the mere mention of adding even a high-quality x-over.

Count me as a panicky De Capo I owner!!!

I have heard an excellent active x-over with my Dad's old Quad ESL 63's (2 entec subwoofer with active crossover) and the integration was seamless. However, where the Quad would literally arc and lose their magic if played too loud (thus, having the sub take over some of the mid/low bass was essential to protect the Quads), I don't see this problem with the De Capo I's. Moreover, I am so utterly impressed with the bass they have, that I can't imagine a subwoofer in my price range will be able to resolve those frequencies with the agility that the De Capo I woofer has. I plan to run em full range, but if I buy a non-Rel sub, I'll try the active crossover route to see how it sounds. If it sounds better, I'll use it that way and report back.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #26 on:** 19 Aug 2003, 07:40 pm »

Doug,

If you are ever in NYC, you are welcome to stop by and hear the MM De Capo I's at my apartment. I don't have a subwoofer as yet, but will hopefully have one soon.

On another note, has anyone actually tried to measure the bass performance of the MM De Capo I's in their system? I'm thinking of employing test tones on the Stereophile CD, but how do I set my meter to do this properly?

doug s. · « **Reply #27 on:** 19 Aug 2003, 08:21 pm »

mcrespo71, tanks for the offer... mebbe next summer, if i go to the s'phile show?

re: budget, i tink a pair of vmps' smaller subs, would be more than fast enuff for yer d-c's. certainly even my larger vmps', w/their 12" & 15" active, & 15" passive drivers, are more than fast enuff for anyting i've tried 'em with, including the miniature proac reference 8 signatures i yust hooked up yesterday. driver speed is not yust dependent on driver size, but driver-vs-motor size, & the design of the sub in its entirety. ever hear the infinity or genesis sub towers, w/six 12" drivers per side? yikes!!!

w/judicious shopping, i tink ya could snag a pair of the vmps' (dealers are competitive), a used marchand x-over, and any decent new or used s/s amp, & still stay around yer budget...

regards,

doug s.

cyounkman · « **Reply #28 on:** 26 Aug 2003, 01:43 am »

Michael:

Here's the information on the concert series I mentioned. See you in NY!

BargeMusic.org

Val · « **Reply #29 on:** 30 Aug 2003, 03:37 pm »

Quote from: JLM

One of the biggest disadvantages of using a sub (or subs) is the tendency of overloading the room with bass energy (too much bass, induced rattling of all sorts of unexpected objects, and sympathetic vibrations).

As hinted at above, what most folks really want is a woofer, not a subwoofer for reproduction of music in the home. A 30 Hz cutoff is fine for nearly all musical forms and avoids ...

Overloading has to do with room gain exaggerating a subwoofer's anechoic flat frequency response. Modern subwoofer makers take room gain into account by designing the system to roll off at the mid-thirties so that typical room gain will flatten the in-room response. North Creek and Adire explain this on their websites.

Reproduction of low bass is not the only benefit a subwoofer brings. The soundstaging and imaging ability of a typical, reasonably sized/priced full-range floorstander that goes down to 35Hz or so would be improved by a good subwoofer because the ambience cues of the original recording venue are "hidden" in the low 20's and below. I have tried this many times, even with non-audiophile friends, with B&W N804s and N803s.

Val

doug s. · « **Reply #30 on:** 30 Aug 2003, 04:33 pm »

val, i agree w/the soundstaging improvement, but only w/use of stereo subs. in my experience, use of only one sub, will, best case, not degrade the soundstage any. and, this is only if the sub is directly centered between the monitors, & preferably in the nearfield...

ymmv,

doug s.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #31 on:** 12 May 2004, 09:52 pm »

Ok, I finally took the plunge and bought a REL Strata III to pair with my MM De Capo I's. I'm glad I did this because it blends completely seamlessly with the De Capo I's. I can't detect it at all and it only provides the lowest bass, so on some material it's not even really contributing anything. However, on full orchestral and almost all electronic music, it delivers the bass and delivers it seamlessly. You really don't know what you are missing out on unless you run things full range- tons of ambient hall acoustics are there and the kick drums on most of my rock records are there in full force providing the proper fundamentals. To me, this is a no brainer improvement, though only on the pieces that need it (i.e., vocal or folk music need not apply).

Michael

zybar · « **Reply #32 on:** 12 May 2004, 10:31 pm »

Mike,

Now try two subs...it is an even bigger improvement than adding the single sub.

George

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #33 on:** 12 May 2004, 11:04 pm »

George,

I know, I know. My room is too small for two subs, but I'll get two when I move to a new place.

Michael

Terry · « **Reply #34 on:** 16 May 2004, 10:45 pm »

Quote from: mcrespo71

Ok, I finally took the plunge and bought a REL Strata III to pair with my MM De Capo I's. I'm glad I did this because it blends completely seamlessly with the De Capo I's. I can't detect it at all and it only provides the lowest bass, so on some material it's not even really contributing anything.

I am also using a Strata III with my DeCappo Is and think it is a great combination. I am curious to know what you have ended up with as your settings. I am running around 30 Hz. (A/6) and at times I think this is actually too high. My volume is usually up around midway. What has worked best for you? Thanks!

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #35 on:** 16 May 2004, 11:20 pm »

Terry,

I've fooled around with different settings and find I switch between A3 to A4 for well recorded stuff at about 2 PM. I switch to A2 for electronica/dance music, rap, and anything with "hot" bass. I have a small room, but I was a little concerned about my settings and called REL. They spoke to me for about 30 minutes to make sure I went through all the steps to dialing in the sub. Apparently, most speakers that go down to about 45-50HZ like the A3 or A4 setting, since Rel's crossover settings use such a gentle slope. I tried to find the Sneakers soundtrack that REL suggests for setting up the sub, but I think it's out of print. Do you have this soundtrack?

Michael

bubba966 · « **Reply #36 on:** 16 May 2004, 11:50 pm »

Doesn't look the the Sneakers soundtrack is outta print to me...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000028UQ/qid=1084751379/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1__i1_xgl15/002-9993303-7382461?v=glance&s=music

Terry · « **Reply #37 on:** 17 May 2004, 12:09 am »

Quote from: mcrespo71

Terry,

I've fooled around with different settings and find I switch between A3 to A4 for well recorded stuff at about 2 PM. .

Thanks Michael. I have been down to A3 and A4 and up to 2PM on the volume as well and, on some recordings, this works fine. This is the problem I have with the REL - one setting does not seem to fit all recordings. Still, it is nice to be able to dial up or down for the sound you want. As far as that Sneakers soundtrack is concerned, I have not been able to find it either. However, I will be ordering from Amazon in the very near future. Cheers, Terry.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #38 on:** 17 May 2004, 01:48 am »

Quote

Thanks Michael. I have been down to A3 and A4 and up to 2PM on the volume as well and, on some recordings, this works fine. This is the problem I have with the REL - one setting does not seem to fit all recordings.

I think this is a problem with subs in general, as there are always recordings with bass that is just "hot" and if you have the sub set up right, it will make a recording that has jacked up bass have jacked up bass when you listen to it. Thus, you have to lower it.

Michael

doug s. · « **Reply #39 on:** 17 May 2004, 12:34 pm »

for best results, you need an active outboard electronic x-over, w/the monitors seeing frequencies only above the x-over point. once it's dialed in, there is never any need to re-adjust for different music types... and, your decapo's *will* sound better when actively crossed over.

if you still wanna keep the rel (or any other active sub), yust set it at its highest frequency setting, when feeding the signal from the outboard active x-over.

doug s.