do different rca connectors make difference in sound?

marvda1 · « **on:** 11 Apr 2007, 10:36 pm »

let me pose a question. if you have five identical lengths of the same cable but terminate them with different connectors, say generic good quality rca's, vampire, cardas, wbt, and bullet plugs, will there be a noticable improvement(difference) in sound to justify the various levels of increase in price?

miklorsmith · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Apr 2007, 10:40 pm »

Apparently so:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/connectors/connectors.html

dave clark · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Apr 2007, 11:17 pm »

We are running a series of interviews with 50 some cable manufacturers in the current issue (10 interviews posted so far...many more to follow). That is one of the questions we asked... but so far the response is split in several different directions.
Dave Clark
Positive Feedback Online
www.positive-feedback.com

Wayner · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Apr 2007, 11:49 pm »

No. Unless some are making poor contact.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 12:05 am »

My experience is that it would depend more on the design. Some connectors utilize a lot of mass while others go by the low mass theory. Eichmann and WBT Next-Gen to name a few. I Personally prefer a low mass connector (although do not like WBT Next-gen connectors. they sound great but too delicate. Especially their chassis mount RCA jacks). Why energize more metal than necessary.

I can't imagine you would hear a difference between two very good quality high mass or two very good quality low mass examples.

As Wayner mentioned, the contact is more important. With some cheaper or worn connectors, a potentially poor contact can effect the sound. IMO

Daryl · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 03:36 am »

Since you are dealing with very low frequencies and high impedances there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between RCA's.

The connection resistance only needs to be OK because the impedance of line level circuits is so high that it swamps the impedance of the connection (connection quality is 5000 times more critical for speaker connections).

The mass of the connector does not affect anything whether 100lb or 1 gram.

At radio frequencies you must not only maintain characteristic impedance but even a sudden geometry change in the transmission line will cause a reflection even though the characteristic impedance is maintained.

At audio frequencies you could either build a quality connector and sell it for a quality connector price or come up with a rediculous hair brained scheme and sell el-cheapo connectors for 20 times the appropriate price (you could say they took a page out of Mr. Bybee's book).

The best RCA's are the ones that are solid and reliable.

Scotty · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 04:21 am »

marvda1, The answer to your question is entirely dependent on the resolution capability of your system and the "wire" used to construct the IC's. I have heard the difference in my system between RCA jacks and RCA male ends and the very highest priced ones did not come out on top. The results were metallurgically and design dependent. Pure copper and a lower mass ground where the barrel was not part of the ground path sounded the best in my system. Brass connectors even though they were identical in design and from the same manufacturer did not sound as good. Grungy is the best way to describe how they sounded. Single blind testing was used to verify what was happening. The results were 100% repeatable and the differences large enough to justify the investment in the best sounding parts for certain connections.YMMV. If you have a system with enough weak links no matter how well they measure, nothing you do will have any effect on the outcome of a listening test. You may be lead to conclude that cables,jacks,plugs and
properly designed gear does not sound different from one another and within this specific context you would be right.
Scotty

Occam · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 12:59 pm »

Scotty - My results are similar to yours in that I found rather radical differences in rca plugs, where the differences were the plating materials and connection methodology. Both used the same mil-spec coax, with one using well respected studio rca plugs which were connected via crimped (with proper tools) connection. The other was a similar studio rca, but the brass had been stripped of its nickle plating over brass and re-plated with a proprietary platinum family metal, and was connected via soldering. Given my soldering skills, and the benefits of a solid crimp, we expected the first connector to 'win'. But when we compared by repeated single blind testing, we found the soldered, re-plated RCAs to be consistently superior, lacking grit and offering substantially greater resolution. I've no idea why we got those results, especially given my soldering skills, and the fact that more than one variable was changed in the comparison.

Shame on us both for having to resort to actual empirical testing. Obviously we lack the intellectual skills of Einstein who could plum the depths with thought experiments.
FWIW

EDIT - If I was to be asked the question with (for whatever reasons) an inability to empirically investigate, I'd certainly opine that with a minimal standard of implementation, RCA connectors carrying audio signals should make no difference whatsoever. My formal education tells me this. Fortuneately, my hubris does not preclude me from such a trival effort of actually making an effort to experimentally verify my assumptions.

gooberdude · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 02:39 pm »

I'm kinda new to this hobby, only being 'into it' for a few years now, but its apparent different RCA's sound differently to these young ears.

As a vinyl enthusaist, i found that the Eichmann Bullet plugs sound much better than anything else i tried from Vampire, WBT or Radio Shack...but i wasn't always using the same IC cabling & just swapping the plugs so my initial impressions were just a guess.

Then I had 2 identical pairs of Anti-IC's for a while, one with Bulletts & the 2nd with Neutrik. I gave the neutriks to a friend after having Bullett plugs installed. there was no contest in that comparison. based on this experience, i have 8 sets of Bullet plugs in my system & don't plan to spend any more time or $ on RCA's.

If anyone wants a load of crappy RCA's to play with they are yours....i think i have 5 sets of heavy, clunky, junky metal ones that i'll never use. Amongst this group of rca's however, i'd bet they all sound similar.

matt

robert1325 · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 02:41 pm »

I like to think so!

Never compared them but my Bolder SB sounds quite allright! (Cardas)

And Anti-IC's with eichmann

Scotty · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 04:27 pm »

Occam, I agree with your statement about formal education failing to support
our observations concerning jacks and plugs. I have seen no explanation for why
copper should sound better than brass. The plugs I tested were direct plated gold over the body of the RCA with no nickel layer. The thing to remember about
Einstein is that he thought new thoughts and went where no one had gone before. He had insight into the workings of the Universe that no one commenting
on these forums has demonstrated they possess. The nice thing about the path of empiricism is that you deal directly with reality with no side trips down denial. The ride can be kind of rough on your assumptions but at least the scenery changes.
Scotty

jrebman · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: Scotty on 12 Apr 2007, 04:27 pm

Occam, I agree with your statement about formal education failing to support
our observations concerning jacks and plugs. I have seen no explanation for why
copper should sound better than brass. The plugs I tested were direct plated gold over the body of the RCA with no nickel layer. The thing to remember about
Einstein is that he thought new thoughts and went where no one had gone before. He had insight into the workings of the Universe that no one commenting
on these forums has demonstrated they possess. The nice thing about the path of empiricism is that you deal directly with reality with no side trips down denial. The ride can be kind of rough on your assumptions but at least the scenery changes.

Congratulations -- you nailed it. When I re-entered this hobby a few years ago the thought that different cables, rca plugs, power cords and break-in had any effect on what one hears was total BS to me -- a product of my formal education and having designed and built my own mediocre audio equipment based on op amps, 2n222s, 2n3055s and such -- back in the 70s and 80s, but then as I sat down, listened, swapped, listened more, and so on, it became quite clear that the sound was changing -- not always for the better mind you, and there also seemed to be little correlation between price and improvement, but there it was staring me in the face, and as much as I didn't want to believe it something had to shift in my thinking. Given that, I still like to verify whenever possible and practical, but when you approach things with an open mind it's less of a shock to the system

.

My dad still shakes his head at all this, but next time he's here I have a no-fail cable swap I can do that leaves no reasonable person able to say that wire doesn't make a difference. And as an aside, it is swapping a pair of $1,400 speaker cables for some antique plain wire that cost me $20, and I'll leave it to you to guess which one is the one that remains in the system

.

-- Jim

eric the red · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 05:37 pm »

Quote from: Scotty on 12 Apr 2007, 04:27 pm

The thing to remember about
Einstein is that he thought new thoughts and went where no one had gone before. He had insight into the workings of the Universe that no one commenting
on these forums has demonstrated they possess.

Some here have tried Scotty

Wayner · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 09:55 pm »

Gold plated directly to brass will corrode. The 2 metals are very far apart on the galvanic chart and the second they are plated together, the battery of distruction begins. That is why Brass is always nickle plated first, then gold plated, to separate the layers of incompatible metals into a more homogeneous layer for the conductor.

Added later: I forgot that the bond between brass (or copper) and gold will be poor as well.

Brass is in the copper family (85 % copper).

Scotty · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 10:52 pm »

I was given to understand that the nickel layer was present to fill in surface imperfections in the brass and give a higher shine and smoother appearance to the gold surface. It is also supposed to allow a thinner layer to be applied without requiring a higher polish on the brass to achieve the same appearance.
A galvanic cell requires an electrolyte and two dissimilar metals, the plated RCA is missing the electrolyte. See link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion#Galvanic_corrosion
Brass conductivity relative to copper, and gold. Gold is about twice as conductive as brass
http://www.myhrsb.ca/Functions/Curriculum/eng/science/9/SupplementaryPages/MetalsElectConductivity.htm
http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article79.htm
See also the galvanic series and the accompanying explanation, brass is less likely to corrode than nickel because it is closer to gold. In both cases brass and nickel are the sacrificial metal in the galvanic cell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series
Scotty

Wayner · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Apr 2007, 11:32 pm »

The "electrolytic" is the current passing through it.

Imperial · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Apr 2007, 10:24 pm »

What Wayner is saying, is that some combinations of rca and cable will actually sound different..
depending on what the receptor is made of... because there could be a reaction other than the signal to consider.
However, most manufacturers of connectors and signals are well aware of this , and this is therefore a rarity.
Polishing the connector ends and the rca's is much more smart, cleaning them and such.

Firms such as Scan Tech (Lyra Connoisseur now..) is a huge fan of this approach.

Maybe a missmatch in cables isn't because the cable is bad or good, but because there is some metal/metal
boundary there that is not optimal.

The same cable may work superbly on a different sets of rca's...
And example of this is Nordost's finicky tellurium usage...

You see tellurium is a strange metal/metalloid .
It has a greater conductivity in certain atomic structural alignments...
I don't think all cable companies know how to get the desired effect.

Them cows keep jumping over the moon you know...
(Ever heard of mu metal...?

)

Lalala laa, lalala laa , Oh my darlin' clementine.

Imperial

ehider · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Feb 2008, 12:38 am »

I have done true "double blind" tests that have absolutely, positively,without question identified over and over again sonic differences between connectors. Don't let any of the "engineer types" on this thread (or any other thread for that matter) convince you with their "education" that there cannot be a sonic difference between rca connectors! As Scotty stated in an earlier response, the sonic differences between connector ends can be quite evident with a sound system that has great resolution. When I first compared a slew of different connectors and their potential sonic affect on the same exact wire type and length (just with just different ends) I was quite shocked of the differences myself

Double blind all the way, the only way to truly test without bias. What more proof could someone ask for?

DaveC113 · « **Reply #18 on:** 9 Feb 2008, 02:09 am »

I've used cheap-o ($1.13 ea) switchcraft RCAs, the ones with the hollow center pin with a hole at the end, so you can solder the signal wire to the tip of the RCA. They use plastic covers, and copper bodies. I have discerned differences in cables and connectors before, sometimes fairly major ones, but when I compared the SC to Eichmann copper plugs, there was almost no difference.... fwiw...

Dave

Scott F. · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 Feb 2008, 02:21 am »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 9 Feb 2008, 02:09 am

I've used cheap-o ($1.13 ea) switchcraft RCAs, the ones with the hollow center pin with a hole at the end, so you can solder the signal wire to the tip of the RCA. They use plastic covers, and copper bodies. I have discerned differences in cables and connectors before, sometimes fairly major ones, but when I compared the SC to Eichmann copper plugs, there was almost no difference.... fwiw...

Dave

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