Setting up laptop + personal server + squeezebox

DC Steve · « **on:** 7 Apr 2007, 10:46 pm »

hey guys... first post after lurking for a while.

i want to setup a music server, but i don't want to use my laptop to store all the music, cause it doesn't really have enough space and i want to rip to lossless format. has anyone set up a personal server, which is basically a hard drive w/ simple software on it that connects to a network, and then connected the squeezebox to this server?

i'm guessing i'd only need my laptop to help set things up, transfer files, but once they were on the server, i'd be good to go?

also, what are your thoughts on empirical audio's offramps? would that be a better option than squeezebox? thanks for the thoughts.

Rashiki · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 11:59 pm »

You can get slimserver to run on a NAS (Network Addressable Storage) server -- SlimDevices will even sell you a bundle consisting of a Infrant ReadyNAS and two SqueezeBoxes for $1500. -- but most low-cost NAS servers aren't designed to run applications other than the built-in ones. A lot of the NAS servers (even the cheaper ones) run a version of Linux and can be hacked to run slimserver, but it isn't a trivial task.

My recommendation would be to find yourself a cheap used or refurbished PC or Mac and upgrade it with an internal or external harddrive. You don't need a high-end computer to run slimserver. Look at the Dell factory outlet www.delloutlet.com, the HP factory outlet http://www.shopping.hp.com/outlet_store or any other computer store. You should be able to find something suitable for under $300. I use a first generation Mac Mini ($499 when new) and an external hard drive to serve four SqueezeBoxes and it works perfectly. I chose the Mini because it's small and very quiet.

I don't know anything about the offramp, but I love my SqueezeBoxes!

-Rob

DC Steve · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 01:18 am »

thanks rob. that's helpful. so, do you have a monitor and keyboard hooked up to your mini mac? or do you have it setup somehow so you can run whatever you need to run on it remotely via your own laptop?

konut · « **Reply #3 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 01:41 am »

I have a laptop running SlimServer and an external 250gb USB hard drive with all the FLAC files. If I need to take the laptop anywhere I just unhook the USB cable, from the laptop, and go. I have an ethernet cable running from the laptop to my SB3. If you have a wireless router its even easier. Piece of cake.

DC Steve · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 02:13 am »

i do have a wireless router. could i hookup a cheap machine w/ a big hard drive to this router via RJ45 cable, set it up so that my laptop has permission to run shit on this computer, and then hook this cheap machine up to the squeezebox, so it's all wired, but i control it via my laptop? would that work?

andy_c · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 02:46 am »

Quote from: DC Steve on 8 Apr 2007, 02:13 am

i do have a wireless router. could i hookup a cheap machine w/ a big hard drive to this router via RJ45 cable, set it up so that my laptop has permission to run shit on this computer, and then hook this cheap machine up to the squeezebox, so it's all wired, but i control it via my laptop? would that work?

Yep. That's very similar to what I'm doing right now as I type this. In my spare bedroom is the wireless router and my "work" computer cabled to the router. The work computer also has a RAID5 array with my music library on it, running the SlimServer software. In my living room where I am now, I have my Squeezebox which gets the music streamed wirelessly from the bedroom machine. The machine I'm typing this message on is a laptop connected wirelessly to the network. It's on a table next to my listening chair in the living room. I can control SlimServer from this machine. This is done by simply entering the special URL http://192.168.1.50:9000/ into my web browser. This makes SlimServer appear in one tabbed window of the browser. From this laptop I pick the songs from my library to play, or internet radio stations, causing SlimServer in turn to control the Squeezebox. For real quick play/pause type of things, I just use the remote.

There's no remote desktop type of thing necessary, as all control of SlimServer is done through its web interface. I set up my work machine to a fixed IP of 192.168.1.50 - thus the URL above.

DC Steve · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 03:06 am »

wow, that's awesome. i'm actually thinking of just going to newegg.com and getting a cheap barebones, slim case, with a celeron D or something cheap, 1GB ram, and a 500GB hard drive. i'll put that in my cabinet with the router, which also houses my audio equipment... then i'm set!

have you guys done any mods to your SB?

i've got a VSE Level 5+ modded Sony player which is stunning. i would hate to set all this up and find out it doesn't sound as good. i'm thinking I could afford a DAC in the $2K range... something like a used northstar 192, audio aero, maybe a wadia...

andy_c · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 03:40 am »

Quote from: DC Steve on 8 Apr 2007, 03:06 am

have you guys done any mods to your SB?

i've got a VSE Level 5+ modded Sony player which is stunning. i would hate to set all this up and find out it doesn't sound as good. i'm thinking I could afford a DAC in the $2K range... something like a used northstar 192, audio aero, maybe a wadia...

My setup uses a Benchark DAC1 connected via Toslink to an SB2. For $2k you could get a Transporter. The advantage of that is that you would eliminate the S/PDIF connection. S/PDIF is prone to jitter because it "pushes" data to the DAC at a constant average rate. To avoid buffer overflow/underflow, the receiving DAC must track that average rate using a PLL. The PLL is not capable of completely eliminating jitter from the source - only reducing it. So the total jitter is always a function of both the transport and the DAC. A single-box solution is superior because the timing is controlled from the DAC clock. The digital circuitry "pulls" data from the network as needed to keep the buffer half full. In essence, the "pull" model of data transfer makes the total jitter (almost) entirely dependent on the DAC clock and not the transport. The clock(s) can then be made using butt-kicking fixed frequency crystal oscillator(s), which have superior jitter performance to a PLL.

woodsyi · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 03:51 am »

DC Steve,

Where are you? I am sure there are people with modded SBs around you. If you are in DC area, there are a bunch all over the area. I am sure you can audition any level of mods.

DC Steve · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 03:55 am »

Quote

My setup uses a Benchark DAC1 connected via Toslink to an SB2. For $2k you could get a Transporter. The advantage of that is that you would eliminate the S/PDIF connection. S/PDIF is prone to jitter because it "pushes" data to the DAC at a constant average rate. To avoid buffer overflow/underflow, the receiving DAC must track that average rate using a PLL. The PLL is not capable of completely eliminating jitter from the source - only reducing it. So the total jitter is always a function of both the transport and the DAC. A single-box solution is superior because the timing is controlled from the DAC clock. The digital circuitry "pulls" data from the network as needed to keep the buffer half full. In essence, the "pull" model of data transfer makes the total jitter (almost) entirely dependent on the DAC clock and not the transport. The clock(s) can then be made using butt-kicking fixed frequency crystal oscillator(s), which have superior jitter performance to a PLL.

hmmm... which brings me back to empirical audio's off-ramp, which supposedly reduces a lot of that jitter, especially if i go with the I2S. but then i lose the squeezebox's interface. i heard steve nugent is workiing on a squeezebox mod. maybe it'll include addressing the jitter issue. i think i might need to hang tight for a bit. mull this over, see how things develop. they've certainly developed a lot in just a year!

Quote

Where are you? ... If you are in DC area, there are a bunch all over the area. I am sure you can audition any level of mods.

yep, i'm in DC...

woodsyi · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 04:02 am »

Steve.

PM me and we can set something up. I am in Vienna and you can hear for yourself.

SB2 with Bolder digtal mod
SB2 with Bolder analog mod/(Burson buffer)
EA I2S off ramp to Northstar 192

andy_c · « **Reply #11 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 04:09 am »

I forgot to mention one thing. A two-box solution can equal a one-box solution in terms of jitter performance if the DAC used has a word clock output and the transport used has a word clock input. This is non-standard though. High-end two-box players like the Teac Esoteric models use this approach. The standard Squeezebox does not have a word clock input, and most DACs do not have a word clock output. However, the Transporter does have a word clock input, though it's not needed if its internal DAC is used. I believe some of the modders are retrofitting word clock inputs to the SB3, but I'm not positive. Check the Slim Devices audiophile forum, particularly the posts of John Swenson. He's very helpful and not an aggressive sales-oriented guy.

In general, if you're looking for SOTA performance, I'd avoid two-box solutions that do not have a word clock (or equivalent) running between them.

DC Steve · « **Reply #12 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 01:50 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 8 Apr 2007, 04:02 am

SB2 with Bolder digtal mod
SB2 with Bolder analog mod/(Burson buffer)
EA I2S off ramp to Northstar 192

this will be very interesting to hear. i'm particularly interested in the empirical audio setup. thanks for the offer, i sent you a pm.

woodsyi · « **Reply #13 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 03:15 pm »

Welcome to AC and see you in the future at MAAC gatherings. You got some good stuff. I would to love to check your Legend Triode Monos out sometime. LM or Nirvana? Don't tell me you got Uni or SE 200.

I run Starlet in my bedroom.

DC Steve · « **Reply #14 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 04:11 pm »

thanks!

RE: the legend audios... i actually just got them. traded them for a vtl st150. they're the lm 200. my parsifals are at the shop so i haven't gotten a chance to listen to them yet, but looking forward to it. i'm hoping they're more refined, transparent vs. the vtl, which i loved, but guess i wanted to try something new.

bluewax · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 04:42 pm »

I'm running a Synology CS-406 NAS wired with CAT6 to an SB2 with Bolder analog mods. A modified version of Slimserver available from "flip flip" on the Slim Devices forums runs without issue on the NAS, and can be accessed by remote, desktop, laptop, or PDA. I've got EAC set-up on both my desktop and my laptop to rip and convert CD's directly onto the NAS. I'm very happy.

Cheers, bw

Rashiki · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 07:09 pm »

Quote from: DC Steve on 8 Apr 2007, 01:18 am

thanks rob. that's helpful. so, do you have a monitor and keyboard hooked up to your mini mac? or do you have it setup somehow so you can run whatever you need to run on it remotely via your own laptop?

Wow. A lot of good advice has come up since I last replied. But to answer your question, yes, I do have a monitor and keyboard on the Mac, but mostly because of convenience -- the Mac is in my "audio room" and I like to create playlists, etc. from there. Like andy_c mentioned, the slimserver web interface is used to control everything, so I can use my laptop from anywhere in the house to control it. I have four SqueezeBoxes set up and they're all controlled through the same web interface. I can turn them on or off and even change the volume remotely.

I do all of my CD ripping from a PC in my home office, then copy the files over to the Mac using a network share. I also keep the files on the PC as a backup.

If you do get yourself a barebones PC, make sure you get one with a quiet power supply and quiet CPU fan. My original slimserver system was too noisy which is why I ended up replacing it with the Mac.

-Rob

Barry.B · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 Apr 2007, 11:04 pm »

Hi Guys,

Sorry, but I'm a bit late on this thread. I'm about to take the plunge with a SB3.

If you connect a large USB hard drive to your laptop with slimserver running on it. Can you connect the laptop wirelessly to both a router (Draytek 2600G), then to the SB3 and get good results i.e. hi quality sound with no drop outs etc (all components will be in the same room)?

Or is it better to do as suggested earlier in this thread and get a refurb/second user Mini Mac with an attached drive and connect this via ethernet to the router and control everything using the laptop. The laptop and external hard drive should be cheaper, but you loose the portability of the laptop.

The SB3 will be feeding a Bryston BP25DA pre amp via S/PDIF which supplies vertically bi-amped 3BST power amps. Speakers are PMC LB1's.

Many thanks,

Barry.B

Rashiki · « **Reply #18 on:** 9 Apr 2007, 12:16 am »

Quote from: Barry.B on 8 Apr 2007, 11:04 pm

If you connect a large USB hard drive to your laptop with slimserver running on it. Can you connect the laptop wirelessly to both a router (Draytek 2600G), then to the SB3 and get good results i.e. hi quality sound with no drop outs etc (all components will be in the same room)?

Barry,

I don't know of anyone who has both the server and SqueezeBox connected via wireless. My setup is all wired and it works well with four squeezeboxes all running simultaneously (synchronized together). I helped a friend set up his wireless SB3 and it works well, but his server is wired to the router. You should be able to run a single SB3 with both SB3 and server connected via wireless, but I don't know of anyone who does that.

If you're running an 802.11b (11 megabit) network, you might be bumping up against the data limit if you stream uncompressed data. An uncompressed CD quality audio stream is approximately 1.4 megabits per second. Wireless networks typically only get 30 to 40% of their rated throughput, so count on ~3Mb/s. If you're streaming wireless from the server to router and router to SB3, you're using up 2.8/3.0, or 93% of your bandwidth.

If you're running an 11g (54 megabit) network, you'll have much more bandwidth, and I suspect it should work fairly reliably.

If you're going to dock your laptop with an external drive to listen to music anyway, you might as well wire it in to the router when you do that. Set up your playlist ahead of time, then control the SB3 with the remote control and leave the laptop docked.

-Rob

DanWiggins · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 Apr 2007, 01:34 am »

Barry,

I run my SlimServer on my laptop, use a Firewire based external hard disk, and wireless to my SB3. I use this connection at home, and at trade shows; last year I had 3 different rooms running this way via the SB3s and my laptop. Used a Netgear TravelGear 802.11G router so it was all wireless.