[chgolatin2]

I just recently purchase a Clearaudio TT with a Pro-ject phono and an adcom cartridge, since I am new I kept my budget under 1k and I did pretty good considering that I purchase a new TT and a Phono for $900 and a cartridge for $70.  Anywyay, I have a Jolida 1000RC and a JD 100 CDP with a level 2 mod.  I love sound of tubes myself but thats just me. 

(first, I hope that I am in the right thread) I dont consider myself an "audiophile" by any means I just like good sounding music and involvement.  The Phono that came with the package is ok for now but in the near future I would love to get a tube phono, a good friend recommended againts it but I insist on having a tube, since I believe that it produces more of a natural sound.  I would like to get the Jolida JD A9 tube phono but my friend insist on me gettng the Channel Islands VVP-1 or the Graham Slee preamp, now I am confused.  Any reason that a tube phono would sound bad, can anyone explain the differences, pro's & cons?

This is going to be a whole new experience with Vinyl since I have always listened to Cd's I expect the journey to be fun and exciting, personally I would like to avoid newbie mistakes but I guess you cant avoid those.

Thanks in advance! Robert

[TheChairGuy]

Good advice from tvad - do not fret until you hear what you have.

The Jolida is very flexible - expecially if you want to try Moving Coils - but for a lot less you can buy the Music Hall/Bellari phono amp for under $250.00 (it is less flexible, only MM and high outputs MC's, but is tube buffered like the Jolida and less expensive).  It also has a handy headphone jack and subsonic filter.

tvad is also right....tube buffered outputs still sound a bit like SS.  Tube rectified and tube outputs does sound quite a bit different...but are generally too noisy to amplify anything but MM cartridges with (if you move to low output cartridges, you are almost obligated to have solid state for the last 20-30 db gain needed).  That last 20-30db gain is too noisy to use tubes (tho there could be some very pricey alternatives I'm not aware of in the market...perhaps Modwright's new phono pre?)

[lcrim]

I have the Jolida JD9 in one system and an Eastern Electric Minimax phono in another.  The Jolida is more flexible in that there are more configurable options and can provide more gain.  The Eastern Electric has a superior detail retrieval and superior imaging but is costlier and doesn't mate well with very low output coils.
I read some of your previous threads and it would seem that you ignored the advice given or had already made up your mind prior to asking for help.  
One thing you can rely on is that setup is crucial to achieving good playback and I hope you get some expert help or guidance with setting up your new TT.  Great tonearm, turntable and cartridge combinations indifferently set up won't sound as good as lesser equipment that is properly set up.

I see Chair Guy has posted while I was typing this and offered an opinion that tubed phono sections are noisier which is an unfortunate opinion that I feel is belied by the Eastern Electric and the Jolida, nevertheless there is a vinyl section on this board that can offer you some help provided you take it.  Take my help, I'm not using it.

[WEEZ]

chgolatin2,

How flexible do you want it to be; and what's your budget?

WEEZ

[TheChairGuy]

tvad
I consider $900 to be a pricier option...especially if your tube phono pre still needs additional step to drive low output cartridges.  That brings the total to well over $1000 to drive low output cartridges...not a king's ransom, but not pocket change either for most 

Larry/lcrim
The Eastern Electric is $1200 when Bill has a sale on it....I have heard the accolades for it (and again, that's not exactly chicken-feed money for something that only can be used with your turntable).  But, it is all tube (tube rectification, tube outputs) and that is likely why it's been designed with only 57db gain - the lowest output cartridges typically require 60db+. No matter how well designed, no matter how carefully the tubes are selected by either grade or type, they are likely too noisy to provide 60db + gain satisfactorily even with step-up transformers. If you stick to 0.4/0.5 and above, you're likely fine indeed, tho, with the EE(as you've indicated already).

It appears to be a tremendous value, nonetheless on specs alone.  I'd love to hear it one day.

The Jolida is tube buffered, solid state rectified - but provides full gain to power anything.

Fella's, the point I'm trying to make is that tube rectification sounds wonderful (I'm not sure I'd buy another tube preamp or amp without it), but is likely a source of high noise levels that makes powering very low output cartridges difficult to acheive without substantial noise. If you have a tube rectified phono pre, you are almost obligated to have a solid stage gain stage for the last 20db.  Or, for usually considerably more expense, a precision step-up transformer.  This is where I am stuck in carefully analyzing low output cartridges (like the one Larry and woodsyi have so generously sent me to evaluate - thanks again )

Again, there may be some tube gear with tightly regulated power supplies and very carefully designed and selected tubes that achieves 60 db gain necessary to power low output cartridges...but they're almost certainly a lot more than chgolatin2 is looking to spend now.  It's just a choice he's faced with, vis-a-vis what he has to spend and what he wants to power, in his new vinyl system.

[bacobits1]

Well, I just picked up a Denon DL103 with a low output of .30 mv. We'll see how it works with the Mini Max Phono Pre.

Den

[TONEPUB]

I know this sounds vague, but I've heard excellent results with SS and Tube phono
stages.  I can personally vouch for the ModWright, it's excellent and VERY quiet
for a tube phono pre..

Having heard a lot of both, side by side, I would go for the tubes because they still
are a bit more musical more often than not, and if you can get the right NOS
tubes, you can get even more magic!!

That being said, because my system is on 12-16 hours a day for work, I'm going
back to solid state for the phono section, so I don't have to replace tubes as often...

[WEEZ]

Hey guys..chgolatin2's cartridge is a moving magnet..it only needs around 40db of gain (appprox). Talking about 56db or 60 db or step-up trannys doesn't help him much.

tvad4's correct...he hasn't even played his new set-up to see if he likes it yet. (it does seem strange to be thinking of an upgrade at this stage in the game...but.. ...)

chgolatin2,

I would suggest you set up your new stuff and play your records for a few weeks and see if you think you even need an upgrade. THEN, if you think you want more...decide on your budget and you can receive some good advice here. If your budget is $300, for example, you can forget tubes. If it's $1000..then you have options.

WEEZ

[TheChairGuy]

I would like to know how that works out, Den.  lcrim/Larry bought a 0.4mv Benz recently and, I think, had trouble getting adequate gain from the EE for it.

He can fill in on the details.

Well, I just picked up a Denon DL103 with a low output of .30 mv. We'll see how it works with the Mini Max Phono Pre.

Den

[chgolatin2]

Thanks for all the support  to be honest I am NOT thinking about upgrading without listening to my vinyl rig setup first .  Since I am new I am asking suggestions advise etc that is all, once I get my system up and running then I will see what I need to add or take away.  Also, I am preparing myself for the future in advance   

[lcrim]

chgolatin2:

The point that may have gotten lost is that the set up is a critical part of vinyl playback and can make or break it. We can be of help.
 
For the record, I have not had any gain issues using the Benz Micro Glider L2 @ .4 mV with my EE MM phono section.  Previous to the Glider I did have an Ortofon MC20 Super MKII which @ .2 mV sounded too polite in comparison to the Benz MC3 loaned me by woodsyi which is now in John's hands.  The midrange density of either Benz cartridge w/ the EE is even more appealing.  BTW the EE has a listed S/N ratio of 87dB for MC and that is certainly an acceptable figure. 
Den, I hope that the Denon DL-103 is a nice match w/ the EE because the price is right and it has a reputation for musicality, do keep us informed.

[SET Man]

I know this sounds vague, but I've heard excellent results with SS and Tube phono
stages.  I can personally vouch for the ModWright, it's excellent and VERY quiet
for a tube phono pre..

Having heard a lot of both, side by side, I would go for the tubes because they still
are a bit more musical more often than not, and if you can get the right NOS
tubes, you can get even more magic!!

That being said, because my system is on 12-16 hours a day for work, I'm going
back to solid state for the phono section, so I don't have to replace tubes as often...

Hey!

     Another vote for tubed phono stage here

     True that you will need to replace tube in tubed phono stage and it is noisier than SS type at the same price. But it shouldn't be where its overtaking the music itself... well unless you have a tube(s) in there gone bad! 

      But personally when its come to sound I just love it when I play my LPs through my all tubed signal system.... Pure analog bliss!    There's something about the sound reproduction through tube isn't it?

     Well, if it is all about noise than why bother get into vinyl at all.... just get the CD and you will have lower noise! 

     Anyway, do listen to what you have now first.

Take care,
Buddy

[TheChairGuy]

Thought I'd toss this in for good measure.....(former) Counterpoint owner's thoughts on MC gain stages.....

http://www.altavistaaudio.com/MCtranny.html

[TONEPUB]

I do think that the tube phono preamp thing really requires careful tube selection.
My main reference phono pre is the Aesthetix Rhea.  With the stock chinese tubes
it is not quite as quiet as I would like, but once I went to Vintage Tube Services
and had Andy hand pick some great NOS tubes, it's a totally different preamp.

Much quieter and way better sounding...

Andy has helped me with my Aesthetix Callisto as well.  Stock tubes - ok performance,
his tubes, super quiet and better sounding in every way.  More dynamic and much more
musical.

Solid state is definitely easier, but can lack that last bit of magic.  Depends on your
system!