No Lowther love in AC?

Bemopti123 · « **on:** 6 Apr 2007, 06:06 pm »

I have been eyeing and reading up on older speaker reviews with Lowther drivers. I cannot recall hardly anyone here in AC, except Scott Fitz who are into these drivers. Why is this so? It seems to me that they are in another league all together, and yet, few people are into them.

Any experiences with them? Issues and qualms?

bpape · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Apr 2007, 06:09 pm »

There are actually several of our GAS guys who run Lowthers.

Single drivers just have their limitations. They have a lot of positives but counterbalancing negatives. If you're all about dynamics, not worrying about amp power, midrange purity, pinpoint imaging, etc. - they're great. But, you have to live with a rolled off high end and bottom end.

It's all about what's most important to you.

Bryan

csero · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Apr 2007, 06:34 pm »

Quote from: Bemopti123 on 6 Apr 2007, 06:06 pm

I have been eyeing and reading up on older speaker reviews with Lowther drivers. I cannot recall hardly anyone here in AC, except Scott Fitz who are into these drivers. Why is this so? It seems to me that they are in another league all together, and yet, few people are into them.

Any experiences with them? Issues and qualms?

I used to have , Diatone, Lowther Pm2A, Pm2C, Goodmans Axiom 80 full rangers, then I grew up

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Apr 2007, 06:37 pm »

Quote from: csero on 6 Apr 2007, 06:34 pm

Quote from: Bemopti123 on 6 Apr 2007, 06:06 pm
I have been eyeing and reading up on older speaker reviews with Lowther drivers. I cannot recall hardly anyone here in AC, except Scott Fitz who are into these drivers. Why is this so? It seems to me that they are in another league all together, and yet, few people are into them.

Any experiences with them? Issues and qualms?

I used to have , Diatone, Lowther Pm2A, Pm2C, Goodmans Axiom 80 full rangers, then I grew up

Classic, Frank! How you been?

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Apr 2007, 06:49 pm »

ScottF loves 'em...he should chime in soon. As for me, you got it right..no Lowther love. To each his own I guess.

MJK · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Apr 2007, 07:00 pm »

I love Lowthers! I am listening to PM2As right now in my home OB system. Behind the couch I have PM6C, PM2C, PM6A, DX2, DX3, and DX4 in reserve. I have been working with Lowthers for a few years. I don't use tubes, I use 200 W SS so I am definitely a little different from your "normal" Lowther user.

Martin

rodge827 · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Apr 2007, 10:01 pm »

I had the privilege of listening to a pair of Carfre Little Big Horns back in early March.These use the Lowther Dx4 driver with a powered low end. WOW is all I can say. This was the first time I had listened to a single driver system and was completely awestruck. I had never considered a single driver system until now. I've been on your page Martin, and have done a few searches here and other places to lean more about single driver design. Bob Brines is trying to set up an audition for me here in NJ, I'm very interested in his LT 2000.

Rodge

Scott F. · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Apr 2007, 10:12 pm »

Quote from: bpape on 6 Apr 2007, 06:09 pm

Single drivers just have their limitations. They have a lot of positives but counterbalancing negatives.....But, you have to live with a rolled off high end and bottom end.

All very true but when you do as Martin (MJK), myself, Dick Olsher, Jon Ver Halen and so many others have done, you play to their strengths rather than force them to show their weaknesses. Go open baffle or even back horn, heck, you could even put them in a 1 cf box but in all cases, actively (or passively) cross them over at about 100Hz (give or take 50) and let a big, vintage HiEff 15" driver fill in the lowest octaves.

If you think that they sound rolled above 12 or 14k, augment the ultrasonic with a super tweeter.

I'll be the first one to tell you that Lowthers used in a true single driver configuration likely won't work. I've only heard one design (the Teresonic Ingenium's) that actually provided fairly even, low bass. Though similar to a true Voight pipe, they used several Helmholtz resonators inside to flatten their bass response. These were the only exception I've ever heard to "Lowthers don't do bass" rule....and those were extremely room dependent on top of it all.

When it comes to Lowthers (and in particular my PM2A's), I have never heard any speaker in any price range that is as coherent and revealing as they are. Couple them with a good single ended triode (just my personal preference MJK

) and it as close to the Voice of God as you can come in audio. When you hear guys talk about 'presence', Lowthers coupled to SETs set the benchmark for all to strive for.

Oh, Lowthers in an open baffle pretty much eliminated the 'head in a vise', 2" sweet spot they used to have. The sweet spot still isn't huge but it definitely got bigger.

So, yes, there is a Lowther lover or two in these here parts

Night_Train · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Apr 2007, 10:18 pm »

Quote from: Scott F. on 6 Apr 2007, 10:12 pm

Quote from: bpape on 6 Apr 2007, 06:09 pm

heck, you could even put them in a 1 cf box. The sweet spot still isn't huge but it definitely got bigger.

there is a lover or two in these here parts

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xElIik0Ys0

pardales · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 12:01 am »

I've got some Lowther love for ya. If you want to see my system look me up on Audiogon (same username as here). I have the Lowther Ambient 2.8 speaker from commonsenseaudio.com -- it features the DX 3 driver.

I have owned some pretty nice speakers in my day (Thiel 2.4, Maggie 1.6, VR4-JRs, etc) and these are my favorites. They probably are missing some bottom end but, I'm not missing it. Just sounds like music to me......REALLY good music.

There IS something to the low watt amp hi efficiency speaker formulas. For me its magic.

shooter · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 12:29 am »

Am using Dick Olsher designed Basszilla diamond edition with Lowther DX4, they have the detail and speed of electrostatic with a great bottom end, sounds wonderful with the right single ended amp.

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 12:29 am »

Quote from: Scott F. on 6 Apr 2007, 10:12 pm

I'll be the first one to tell you that Lowthers used in a true single driver configuration likely won't work. I've only heard one design (the Teresonic Ingenium's) that actually provided fairly even, low bass. Though similar to a true Voight pipe, they used several Helmholtz resonators inside to flatten their bass response. These were the only exception I've ever heard to "Lowthers don't do bass" rule....and those were extremely room dependent on top of it all.

Keep your eye out for the new Rethm line, Scott. Full-range Lowther (DX55 in the 1st one out, Saadhana, the middle of the line) augmented with powered bass (two custom 6" Peerless drivers) below 75-150Hz (adjustable crossover). Bass is also horn-loaded and said to be within 10d phase of the Lowther.

Sound like a good idea?

bpape · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 12:30 am »

I just find it somewhat of an enigma to proport the single driver way of life - and then augment them with an external xover, extra amps for the sub, and tie in a supertweeter for the highs. Seems like you're getting away from that single driver/point source idea. To get that, try something like this: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery&pos=0

That said, I'll agree with Scott. I've heard his system. It does do some very special things. It has a lucious midrange with the single ended amps and can throw an excellent image. In the OB configuration he has now, the sweetspot has gotten a lot bigger too.

Bryan

JLM · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 01:22 am »

Most "straights" mis-use the term single driver design for full range. Nearly all such drivers are honestly better termed "extended range" drivers. That said, marketing has convinced nearly everyone of the importance of 20 - 20,000 Hz response at 110 dB. The reality is that the heart of music is in the 7 octaves from 60 - 8,000 Hz at lower (more realistic) sound pressure levels. The 20 - 20,000 Hz at 110 dB "craze" has caused most audiophiles to lose sight of this heart of the music. These extended range drivers do their best work when not asked to reach the frequency extremes.

Lowthers are expensive, highly efficient, hyper-detailed, and have a midrange emphasis. Like many extended range drivers they are really just big mid/tweeters. I really like the single driver concept, but not the Lowther sound.

Single driver designs can beam at high frequencies, are typically not capable of going under say 50 Hz, and have limited (abet still usable) ultimate sound pressure levels. And when pushed too hard distort, especially with large ensemble pieces. But they offer several important advantages:

Coherency - the sound doesn't change with change in frequency as happens with most woofer/tweeter designs where the signal splits into different crossover paths and completely different drivers

Active - by default, one channel of amplification is used per driver, providing an easier/simplier load for the amp to react to which leads to flatter/more extended response and greatly improved dynamics

Crossoverless - phase issues eliminated (very tough to do correctly in multiple driver active designs), power saved, one less source for distortions

Imaging - provides the ideal point source, especially important if listening nearfield (which helps to minimize room effects)

There's no perfect speaker, but more folks are waking up to the classic advantages of single driver designs as a way to get back to the essence of the music.

BTW Bob Brines puts MJK's MathCad application to very good use. My FTA-2000s have no need for a sub (or whizzer cone for very good nearfield sound).

Scott F. · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 02:24 am »

Quote from: PaulFolbrecht on 7 Apr 2007, 12:29 am

Keep your eye out for the new Rethm line, Scott. Full-range Lowther (DX55 in the 1st one out, Saadhana, the middle of the line) augmented with powered bass (two custom 6" Peerless drivers) below 75-150Hz (adjustable crossover). Bass is also horn-loaded and said to be within 10d phase of the Lowther.

Sound like a good idea?

Hey,

Know what? I forgot all about the DX55's. I haven't heard the Rethem's but I did get to play with Lowther America's Alerion's. Joh VH used a scaled down version of the Medallion and the DX55 in this one. In a small room, this back loaded horn had loads of bass to around 45hz. It did need a notch filter but it still sounded pretty good. I spent most all my time with them using my 2A3 to drive them.

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 02:30 am »

Quote from: Scott F. on 7 Apr 2007, 02:24 am

Know what? I forgot all about the DX55's. I haven't heard the Rethem's but I did get to play with Lowther America's Alerion's. Joh VH used a scaled down version of the Medallion and the DX55 in this one. In a small room, this back loaded horn had loads of bass to around 45hz. It did need a notch filter but it still sounded pretty good. I spent most all my time with them using my 2A3 to drive them.

Rethm goes to great lengths to ameliorate the Lowther's peaks by modifying the driver pretty extensively; most say it requires no filtering (they use none) and many also say it's the best Lowther implementation they've heard.

How'd the 2A3s work on the 55? Splendidly would be my guess. I'm using a little Consonance 2A3 integrated on a pair of Audio Nirvana single drivers in a 2nd system and that is a low-cost combo made in heaven. (The A-N drivers are made here in the U.S. by the Lowther importer, David Dicks, who says they're about 80% as good as the Lowthers (seems about right) and they're also waaaaay cheaper.)

JimJ · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 02:36 am »

Never heard Lowthers yet...really want to though

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 02:52 am »

Link to the Audio Nirvana speakers......and I see comments by Paul Folbrecht....and others at the bottom of the page....

They do have many models....

JAMn Joe · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 03:42 am »

Scott F.,

I will have the Rethm Saadhana's in-house in aproximately 5 weeks give or take depending on the shipment from India arriving as scheduled. If you decided to make a trip up to Chicago during late spring or this summer feel free to give me a call. We'll set up a time for you to come up and take a listen

pardales · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Apr 2007, 03:47 am »

The link lonewolfny42 supplied above is the place I bought my Lowther based speakers. That is Commonsenseaudio.com and they have different pages for their Nirvana, Fostex and Lowther based speakers. The enclosures are all the same its the drivers that vary. Its a very informative site if your interested. The people who put up the site seem to have a lot of experience and know their corner of the audio universe pretty darn well. David is a very nice person to speak with.