High Output vs. Medium or Low Output MC Carts - Differences?

tvad4 · « **on:** 5 Apr 2007, 05:10 pm »

I'm interested to read opinions regarding the differences and/or advantages of using high output vs. medium or low output carts within the same product line and model, i.e. the Benz Micro Ace.

Assuming with each configuration that optimum impedance loading and gain would/could be achieved with one's phono preamp, I'm not clear why one would choose a specific output over another unless one's phono preamp did not allow for any loading or gain flexibility.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Apr 2007, 05:30 pm »

Great question tvad (well timed, for me)...hoping to hear back from those more knowledgeable than I on the subject

TomS · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Apr 2007, 05:31 pm »

First off, I am NOT an expert or very experienced on things vinyl, but FWIW here was my brief experience recently ...

I had a long discussion on this with Mehran at Sorasound (ZYX) before I bought an Airy3 which is offered in both 0.24mv and 0.48mv versions, among other options (silver, copper, weights, etc.). I kept pushing in the direction of "what will I miss?" if I go with 0.48mv, assuming that was the case. He was more inclined to look for an optimum sonic match with the phono pre I intended to use (for sonic characteristic reasons, not gain capability). In my case it was a Joule Electra OPS2 all tube dual mono. Ultimately I chose 0.48mv, and found it was not lacking in any area that I might expect like maybe resolution, speed, transparency. Intuitively, those of us with simple minds might think with lower excursion required it might be "quicker", improving on those characteristics. In practice that cart was so outstanding in those areas that I never gave a thought to whether the 0.24mv would be better. He actually spent more time talking about silver vs. copper than anything.

Tom

TomS · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Apr 2007, 06:13 pm »

When I said sonic match, I meant that he steered me through a set of questions around how my pre sounded vs. how the low or high output versions might complement or work against those characteristics differently. Of course for the most part you can't really tell how the pre "sounds" without a cart attached (that has it's own sound too). I'd like to think there was a method to his questioning that would lead his recommendation one direction or the other. They were the same price and he had both available so it wasn't a matter of any benefit for him to sell me either one over the other. So my point was there are likely differences (independent of impedance and gain) that perhaps someone like him or someone much more knowledgeable than me could explain.

WEEZ · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Apr 2007, 06:40 pm »

I'm not a moving coil guru either...despite being a vinyl lover.

But I think the 'theory' of the superiority of lower output is twofold: 1) less inductance for purer and more extended high frequencies; and, 2) less windings provides less opportunity for noise..in this case, hum.

The only thing I can't get my head around, is the tradeoff might poosibly be more noise (or hum) from the higher gain phono amplifier required. I'm not sure there's a 'right' choice, but I can share this with you all:

As you may know, the little Grado phono amp has (2) gain settings (40db and 56db) for use with either high output or low output Grado cartridges. I've tried both versions of the Sonata with it; the .5mv version with the 56db gain setting and the 5.0mv version with 40db of gain. The low ouput version did sound more open and extended, and I really liked it but I had a bit more overall noise. Not hum, but hiss. I eventually went back to the high output cartridge, as it worked better for me.

And now, I've settled for the Grado Gold because when the stylus needs replacing, I just carefully slide the stylus assembly out and replace it and I don't have to go thru the hassle of setting everything up all over again. I'm getting too old for that shit. Life is too short.

WEEZ

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Apr 2007, 06:48 pm »

tvad: I think what your saying is...once you properly match capacitance and resistive loads to the exisitng cartridge, you never really know what you have in hand already. Why move to another cartridge that might run you $500 or more?

That's pretty much where I'm at in my reasoning, too. Not enough effort overall spent in matching capacitance and impedances to really know what one has in hand. I think once this is dialed in rather precisely, the real differences between models, manufacturer offerings and even types of cartridges (MM/MC/MI) is apt to be a lot smaller than originally imagined.

Yes, lower inductance and DC resistance likely matters, as does stylus shape and quality....but once you eliminate mismatches between cartridge and equipment, I'm thinking the differences might be a lot smaller than originally imagined.

Just an semi-educated hunch

I posted elsewhere that I bought a 7 position (each) capacitance and resistance switch box from db Systems recently so that I can dial out imprecise matching in (my current stable of

cartridges now.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Apr 2007, 08:57 pm »

tvad, et al: Don't know if you already know the excellent site provided by Mr. Hagerman, but it eliminates any guesswork on capacitive loading for MM/MI or resistance loading on MC's. http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

Providing you have cartridge inductance and total capacitance figures....it eliminates all guesswork. Unfortunately, few cartridge, cable or TT manufacturers are 100% forthcoming in respect to these things. AT, ADC, Grado, Goldring and Pickering/Stanton do most often provide inductance figures...the rest are kinda' hit and miss a lot. Seems hi output moving coils, 2 to 2.5mv, are in the 0.2 to 0.4mh range for inductance I've found (whether Ortofon, Denon, or Benz I've found) - which means all high output MC's are bound to be better damped at a load closer to 1K, rather than 47K

The very amazing APT-Holman preamp manual I have has dozens of makes of TT and tonearm capacitances if you need to ask me. My JVC is 85pf, for instance. It also has dozens of makes of recommended capacitive loads for MM/MI cartridges.

Sidepoint - it states that cartridges made for quadraphonic/4 channel sound (which work perfectly fine with two channel) need to have a resistive load of 100K (not 47K) as they were designed with ultrasonic responses in mind. Examples include the Empire 4000 series, JVC 4MD-20X, Grace F9F and U cartridges and others.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Apr 2007, 09:22 pm »

Sorry for diverging, tvad...got a mite too excited about my issues, not yours

Ciao, John