Tubes VS SS

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tommystery

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Tubes VS SS
« on: 3 Apr 2007, 10:05 pm »
Alright, so this isn't exactly an Odyssey question; but I do have a Stratos Stereo Plus, and I like the community on this specific forum so I hope you guys don't mind me posting on here.

My Stratos Stereo Plus is fed from an Audio Experience Tube preamp; I recently purchased a few sets of tubes and I was rolling tubes over the weekend, doing AB comparisons to find out which combination I liked the most.  Then an idea hit me, I borrowed my friend's passive preamp and did an AB comparison between both preamps with the tubes i liked.  Yes, in all respects the tube preamplifier is more open, brighter, and warmer sounding.  This is generally what tubes do.  However, isn't this a particular coloration of music which isn't true to the original?

Furthermore, couldn't the same effect be achieved with a good solidstate preamplifier and a good eq such as the Audio Control 101?

My question, logically speaking, a preamplifier cannot add anything which makes the music more accurate than the 'source.'  As such, it adds various colorations and has it's own eq signature, but with a good equalizer you can create the signature which suits the music you're listening to or bypass it entirely to hear the original recording.

Thoughts? Ideas? Comments?

TheChairGuy

Re: Tubes VS SS
« Reply #1 on: 4 Apr 2007, 12:49 am »
It has been suggested to me recently that all tube preamps are unduly colored....and the 'real' way to enjoy music is positively un-audiophile like: buy a well made SS preamp and add equalization to taste (the suggestion for an equalizer was Behringer's DEQX2496 Ultracurve Pro model).  The equalizer adding back warmth or sound reinforcement as needed...the SS preamp reproducing the music more accurately than any tube preamp.

Myself, I passed on the suggestion.  I love my 'colored' tube preamp - I've never enjoyed music so much for so little as I do nowadays. PUH on accuracy - I'm not gonna' remember if my music was accurate when I pass from this earth....I'll remember smiling a lot for little outlay, tho  :D

jinca

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Re: Tubes VS SS
« Reply #2 on: 4 Apr 2007, 01:12 am »
I found Hugh's perspective interesting:

Quote
Second, the source direct issue.  This warrants a bit of philosophy, in fact.  There are two schools of thought on this - roughly divided into the SS camp and the tube camp, accuracy versus engagement as I see it.  SS is accurate, dry, surgical, even acerbic.  But lots of people like that - it is visceral, too, and delivers a thwack, particularly obvious on rock bass.  SS is quiet, usually quieter than tubes, and doesn't take forever to warm up after switch-on.  And on orchestral works, with tens of instruments and a big scale sound, this accuracy is very good as you can pick out individual instruments clearly, like the solo violinist, and still hear the pure, single notes above all the cacophony.

Quote
I love tubes, but miss the detail.  I also like SS, but don't enjoy the surgery.  The best compromise, I've found, is a tube front end, the preamp, followed by a SS power amp

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=30930.40

tommystery

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Re: Tubes VS SS
« Reply #3 on: 4 Apr 2007, 01:15 am »
See, personally, I don't think it's such a bad idea.

I've spent about $150 on tubes by now and $450 initially on the amplifier.  I like to keep my gear on continiously but I obviously can't do that with a tube preamplifier.  And I mean, I'm sure that some people will claim that a tube preamplifier is more detailed and warmer, but all it's really doing is mellowing out the treble, enchancing the mid-frequency range, and 100 - 400hz band to give bass that airy punch.  I would really be interested to see if I could reproduce the tube sound with a good eq.  Also, when switching tubes I noticed that different tubes had drastically different sounds; while the fact that some characterstics held true, my Electro Harmonics 12AU7 tubes are extremely muddy whereas my GE 5-star black plate 5751's have a prominant mid band, with solid bass, and a rolled off high frequency band.  But market prices for those tubes are at almost $50 a piece now.

DSK

Re: Tubes VS SS
« Reply #4 on: 4 Apr 2007, 01:17 am »
I'm not sure I agree with the old chestnut that SS is more accurate than tubes. From a measured distortion viewpoint yes, but from the viewpoint of most accurately putting you in the room with the performers ...no. To my mind, SS doesn't (usually) get the harmonic structure of instruments as correct and complete as tubes do and this is what brings playback closer to the live performance. So, if tubes bring us closer to the original performance I would argue that they are more accurate in areas that most matter.  :D

Tommystery, what sounds most like the original performance to you ...SS or tubes? Whichever one does, it will bring you closer to the music and increase your listening enjoyment, so go with it. Don't be too worried about technicalities and measurements, your ears and the smile on your face are the best analysis tools you have.  :wink:


WEEZ

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Re: Tubes VS SS
« Reply #5 on: 4 Apr 2007, 01:29 am »
tommystery,

First off, 12AU7's and 5751's are not in the same family...check you owner's manual and use the correct tube family!

Second, you will never duplicate the musical sound of a tubed linestage with a solid state pre-amplifier and an equalizer. Never.

Third, not all tubed preamplifiers are 'colored'.

Fourth, 'passive pre-amplifiers' are not pre-amplifiers at all. They are volume controls. If they are transformer coupled and/or buffered, they are 'active'.

Last, if you want good synergy with your Odyssey amplifier, get on the waiting list for a Candella.

WEEZ

rajacat

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Re: Tubes VS SS
« Reply #6 on: 4 Apr 2007, 02:01 am »
Are there measurements for transparency? Is there a number that indicates that an amp/pre provides great depth, width and proper height to the soundstage? Is there a number that can explain why an amp that sounds and measures well from one that just measures well. I feel that, at this time, there are not electronic devices that will provide numbers for all the qualities of recorded sound. If there were why even audition a piece when all you should have to do is consult a spreadsheet with all the data nicely laid out for you. Why do some amps that measure virtually the same sound different? :scratch:

Raj

TheChairGuy

Re: Tubes VS SS
« Reply #7 on: 4 Apr 2007, 03:29 am »
Klaus, we're messing your circle up now with general talk....sorry, man  :|

Raj - your questions have been asked by others...and they are still trying to figure it all out  :scratch:  What sounds pleasant to you is good - what doesn't is bad

It's all so very personal anyhow - music is a passion shared not equally to all those around you. Everyone hears something different, but something unique to them.

lazydays

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Re: Tubes VS SS
« Reply #8 on: 4 Apr 2007, 04:58 pm »
the things I notice is preamps and amps can be lumped into two or three
catagories. I can still remember the very first "good" system I heard, and it was a Counterpoint preamp driving Bryston amps. The combo sounded pretty good, and completely different from what I was used to. Later I had the chance to set in front of the very same speakers being driven by a Conrad Johnson preamp and their ST 140's. Needless to say I could really tell a difference in the sound quality. I knew right then and there that I was moving into a new direction (tubes), and it would be hard to compete with what I heard. At the time I was using an Accuphase amp & preamp, but it wasn't even slightly competetive with the other. So It was life with one tube amp after another and several tubed preamps. Still every once in awhile I'd do a reality check with a couple solid state amps tucked away in my closet. About once a year I'd do this check, and maybe a couple other amps to boot. The one thing I did notice was that the amps (new stuff) all seemed to be getting smoother and somewhat closer to that tube sound I became so endeared with. But the solid state preamps all still suck. (rather blunt I know) The ones that were smooth tended to be somewhat dark and cloudy. But the tube preamps just seemed to be getting better. So later I got on this tangent to finally go with a pair of Maggies and some real horse power to drive them. Narrowed it down to three amps (knew I was shopping for mono blocs). First was the Pladium, and the Plinius right behind them and the McCormick after that. Later on I heard all the fuss about some new Odyssey amps that were a "must hear." Some felt they were right in there with the first two, and maybe better. (that's tall ground). I had heard several Krell amps in the past, and they were OK at best (liked the Accuphase better). Anyway I picked up a pair of mono blocs off of the Audiogon for about $1550 with the Gronenburg cables. From there they sat at the top of my stairway just gathering dust (it's pretty hard to go back to solid state once your in tube groove). While I had them I took offers all the way out to $2000, but I didn't sell them. Instead I called the guys that built them (keep in mind I've still never heard them), and asked about a major tune up as my tube amp was going south in a hurry. The conversation went from checking them out to upgrading them, and the rest is history. They got back to me in about ten days,
and I hooked them up into my HT system speakers. Then just played them 24/7 for about three weeks. Every two or three days I'd set down an listen to them, and finally after three weeks I put a Conrad Johnson preamp in front of them. I was stunned! What I heard was the Accuphase sound but much more transparent. About that time my sons dropped by, and they all felt they were a winner. Later I tried several other preamps (both solid state and tubed). The results were rather mixed with some sounding horrible at best! So I then put them into my main downstairs system being driven by a Quicksilver linestage preamp. Now I liked this! Wasn't as slick as the CJ, but still the sound was to die for. I played this system with about anything I could muster up. Then Klaus sent me an email telling me he had a preamp for me. And did he have one. It reduced my Quicksilver to a doorstop status in about fifteen minutes! (I'm serious). But it just seemed to get better with age. I did chase about an octive and a half for close to a month, but oneday it was right there in my lap. The system now has the feel of a good tube amp, but is faster with huge amounts of presense. Still in the meantime I was looking at some speakers and a new SACD player at one of the audio dealers near me. They were using Krell amps, and I thought they were a little light weight and maybe slightly bright. But my youngest kid flat out told Roy that my amps would blow those amps away (funny thing is Roy has asked me about a half dozen times about them since).
Now I don't know if I'll forever stay with the solid state amps in the future (I still have the eternal love affair with tubes), but the ones I have will be around for while. I cannot see me going to a solid state preamp anytime during the rest of this lifetime. To be exact I don't even think about it. Everyone that has heard it loves the sound, but I keep pointing out to them that they are missing the most important parts. The sound stage (well my brother did catch that part).
is a killer. I can set down and pin point everybody's position on the stage, and much of the time know if it's got it right.
    My best friend dropped by one day last fall, and he was stunned with what he heard. He went home and drug out his Techniques turntable (I gave him a good solid state phono stage). The next day he comes over with the boss at his house, and he asked my to play something on the turntable. She then walked over and handed me this Toscanini boxed set. As she sat there listening I could see a tear in her eyes. Asked her if she was OK, and she just smiled. Turned out that her Grandfather played with Toscanini for many years, and she grew up listening to that stuff. She said it was right there! So now I think Larry is going to be getting something similar to what I have (quick as the comptroller releases the money). Just for the look on her face was the perfect selling point.
She has a birthday coming up, and I plan on giving her that Toscanini boxed set.
gary

rajacat

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Re: Tubes VS SS
« Reply #9 on: 4 Apr 2007, 05:17 pm »
Excellent  post/story!  :thumb:

Raj