How's plywood for an equipment stand?

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BobC

How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« on: 3 Apr 2007, 08:14 pm »
Hi Folks,

I'll be moving into a new house soon and will need to re-do my system layout.  I may build a new rack or shelves.

The cheap solution would be to build these out of plywood.  How is plywood for vibration isolation?  Does it "ring" (not even sure I know what that means  :oops: )?

I see others build out of hardwood (maple mostly) but not plywood.  I assume this is due to aesthetics because I would think the plywood would be stronger and dissipate energy better....correct, or no?  :dunno: 

I also see people using a slab of granite.  Would it matter if the granite with spikes was supported by a rigid plywood shelf?

I'm thinking of 3/4" plywood shelf which would hold a stand.  Then build an equipment stand out of either plywood trimmed with hardwood and spikes or.....granite and spikes.

Anyone see any issue with this?  Any other suggestions?  I'd like to keep is simple and avoid sand, bicycle tubes, etc.

Thanks, Bob C

Russell Dawkins

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #1 on: 3 Apr 2007, 08:38 pm »
I would say, and this may not be a popular opinion, don't worry about it!
Build what you think looks good and is convenient and spend your time and money on reasonable room treatment.
It looks like you already have the amps and speakers!

Russell

BobC

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #2 on: 3 Apr 2007, 08:48 pm »
Yes, Amps are Odyssey Mono Extreme SE's and Speakers are Martin Logan Ascent i's.  :wink:

Just would hate to invest time and money into a stand that causes a problem, i.e. I'll spend the extra coin on hardwood, granite or some sort of mechanical isolation if there is a benefit over plywood.

Would rather build built in shelves for example out of plywood versus hardwood.  But not if it's bad sonically.

markC

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #3 on: 3 Apr 2007, 09:06 pm »
If I were going plywood, I'd consider using Russian birch. Many more layers than standard plywood. Go to Home Depot and knock on a piece of Russian birch, (pull it off the rack and stand it on end first), then try the same experiment with standard ply. Only got a couple of funny looks when I tried it. :o
If you try this, I think your choice will be clear.

Gordy

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #4 on: 3 Apr 2007, 09:13 pm »
If I were going plywood, I'd consider using Russian birch. Many more layers than standard plywood.

It's also sold as Baltic Birch and Finnish Birch.  Many speaker builders seem to love it!

JimJ

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Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #5 on: 3 Apr 2007, 09:31 pm »
I built my shelves (and soon, my speakers) out of baltic ply. Covered the fronts with poplar trim, worked out nicely.

Sturdy enough to support my 40lb. amplifiers without an issue :)

JoshK

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #6 on: 3 Apr 2007, 09:32 pm »
The stuff at HD is suppose to not be the same thing as real baltic birch, aka 13 ply.  Apparently the HD stuff isn't truely void free as BB has to be.  BB is sold in 5' x 5' sheets, not 4' x 8' sheets. 

PaulHilgeman

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #7 on: 3 Apr 2007, 10:28 pm »
The Stuff at HD is not very good as far as true baltic birch goes.  However, it is probably fine for stands etc, if you are going to do a double-wide stand, go for double layers so it is 1.5" thick, it will be very dead, and you will not have to worry about any acoustical side-effects.

The only real problem that you may run into is that with the stuff at HD, if you do get a small void in the layer below the veneer layer, a spike will stick into it pretty good, and overall, if you ever end up using spikes or anything like that, they will stick much deeper into the stuff from home depot than they would into true baltic birch.  This is because the stuff at HD uses softer woods for the core layers.

What I have always wanted to do was to get a section of a log, about 4" thick and about 60 inches long, 19 inches deep.  It will be a fortune, but beautiful and solid as can be.

-Paul

BobC

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #8 on: 4 Apr 2007, 12:15 am »
Thanks for the info everyone!   :thumb:

So my understanding is that plywood is actually better than hardwood due to the layers, but only if there are no (minimal) voids, correct?

So for shelving I'll probably use plywood.

What about for equipment stands?  Same logic?  Any advantage / disadvantage when comared to granite?

Thanks, Bob

PaulHilgeman

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #9 on: 4 Apr 2007, 12:17 am »
You could use bamboo :)  -  Definitely void free!!!

-Paul

warnerwh

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #10 on: 15 Apr 2007, 03:01 am »
Having voids in plywood will not hurt anything. I'm sure ply won't resonate like pure wood would.

I built a Salamander clone out of a single sheet of oak finish grade plywood. It's 2'x4' with four shelves double wide and six threaded rods.
This thing is sturdy as hell and with all the weight on it can't be vibrating much. I wouldn't worry about any vibration there anyway. Think how much the electronics in your speakers must vibrate.

Being as I'm using two diy 15" sealed subs plus a pair of VMPS RM 40s in a 12x17 room I can't imagine the voids in my oak ply having any effect on the sound.  Acoustics are far more valuable for consideration and audible too! :D

Now when I built my subs I use 13 ply birch from Home Depot. It's only 45 bucks a sheet and the birch looks nice stained and varnished. Building speakers is where you want to avoid the voids. I have two subs and one is MDF double thick and braced. I can't hear any difference between the mdf sub and my 13  ply birch sub at all.

Btw plywood is far stronger than say a sheet of maple or oak.

Best of luck on your project.

lonewolfny42

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Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #11 on: 15 Apr 2007, 06:08 am »
Here's a nice DIY equipment stand....



....built by mgalusha/Mike....nice  !! :thumb:

bubba966

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #12 on: 15 Apr 2007, 07:24 am »
Try looking for marine plywood in the 20+ ply variety. It's available in many different ply counts. Can't recall all of the variations that I saw when I last looked at it. But it seemed to run for 9 ply on the low end to 29 ply on the higher end. I think you can get greater than 29 ply stuff, but it's the kind of thing that's usually a special order item at most places.

JLM

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Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #13 on: 15 Apr 2007, 11:07 am »
Here's a bit of the physics behind racks:

Vibrations come from 3 sources - outside (wind, street noise, earthquake), non-related inside objects (people talking/walking, appliances), or of course the sound system itself.  Isolation is the obvious answer for outside and extraneous inside sources.  So lets move onto vibrations from the sound system itself.

Often neglected are the extraneous vibrations created by the system.  The vibrations caused by microphonics from the individual electronic parts and spinning discs make what goes on inside your component a well designed source of vibrations.  Don't forget that the highest spls in your room are found inside (or in the case of an open baffle, on) the speaker cabinet (which is why some locate crossovers away from the speaker cabinet.

Vibrations are transmitted via the supporting elements, the air, and within the source components themselves.  If you keep the sound pressure levels (spl) down, the airborne vibrations normally aren't a problem (air being a relatively poor conductor of vibrational energy).  If you like it loud, the equipment should be somehow enclosed or isolated.  Some folks have experimented with removing component covers, but in light of vibration control that makes little sense (perhaps the metal is influencing the magnetic field of the transformers).  When you look inside any component you'll find many, many examples of large and small cantilevers (capacitors and resistors are typically connected to their boards like little springboards) and some examples (for instance CD/vinyl without a heavy puck or clamp or long runs of wiring) that are just laying there with no coupling. 

A rack can only help reduce vibrations from supporting elements, but can help drain all three.

Regarding reduction in vibrations transmitted via the supporting elements - the rack is only one link in the chain that starts with the earth and includes foundations, load bearing members, and the floor.  Which element is the weak link can only be determined on a case by case basis, but typically its the floor.  Suspended wooden floors flex much more than any other common structural element.  Unless you build something intentionally flexible, the rack won't be the weak link.

Drainage of vibrations involves - mass, anchorage, and stiffness.

Some prefer the rack to isolate rather than drain, this should be based primarily on the floor.  A concrete sla      rade makes for a wonderful sonic drain as it has plenty of mass, anchorage, and stiffness.  A suspended wooden floor has mass and anchorage, but little stiffness.  There is little point coupling to a bouncy floor. 

As mass increases so does the amount of energy required to vibrate (move) it.  Anchorage (or coupling) allows for transmission of the vibration into a combined mass.  Stiffness is largely a factor of design (shape and bracing of solid objects).  A diving board for instance could have the same mass as a cubic shape of the same material, and even though both are securely anchored its obvious which is more stiff. 

Note that because of gravity, most after market sonic support elements treat horizontal and vertical vibrations/movements differently, but it reality vibrations are non-directional.

Finally we get to the real sticky part, frequency and resonance.  Objects do have a natural resonant frequency based on material, mass, anchorage, and stiffness.  Few materials used for rack shelving are truly homogeneous.  Others have spoken of plywood voids, but even the same species of wood is not consistent.  Plys imply  :roll: a composite sandwich of differing materials.  Even stone products are made up of different materials.  High density fiberboard may be the best commonly available material.  Generally, as mass increases it has the secondary effect of reducing the resonant frequency of the solid object is reduced and as the resonant frequency goes down, the amount of energy required to resonant goes up.  So anchorage typically helps, such as in the case of concrete floors or adding damping material to the sheet metal panels of the component cabinet.  The goal here is to move the resonant frequency to around 6 Hz (an octave or two above the natural vibrations of the earth itself and an octave or two below the range of the sound system).


Bottom line: 

1.  Isolate yourself from the world as best you can, this will allow you to hear more at lower spls.  Lower spls mean less airborne and self induced vibrations.

2.  If you listen loud (BTW extended exposure to 85 dB or more will result in permanent hearing loss or possibly worse) consider enclosing your equipment or moving as many components as possible to another room.

3.  For soft (wooden) floors use soft supports (pillows, air bladders) or consider using brackets that are secured to the walls (if the walls are stiff).

4.  Use heavy/coupled supports on concrete slab floors.

5.  Devices that behave differently vertically than horizontally (like flexi-racks or roller balls) make no sense and removing covers is counterproductive in terms of vibration control.


All that said, personally I keep the spls down and use a small $30 Ikea "Corras" nightstand for my simple system.  My well isolated dedicated listening room has a concrete slab, so I left the rollers off the bottom of my "rack" so that the posts that the rollers attach to are allowed to act to some degree like spikes.  I then use a 2nd matching nightstand as a side table at my listening chair that allows me to add a 4th shelf if needed in the future.  In total a $90 and one hour investment.  The "rack" elevates the controls for my convenience, permits short cable runs, and stays unobtrusive for imaging/soundstaging.

Christof

Re: How's plywood for an equipment stand?
« Reply #14 on: 16 Apr 2007, 12:36 am »
You could use bamboo :)  -  Definitely void free!!!

-Paul

Plyboo? 

I recommend a company called Arbor Scientific for a product they sell called "Unhappy Balls"  I use them under my Odyssey amps for vibration control and they wook very well.