[James Romeyn]

A little over a year ago I had the pleasure to take the BMW Driver's Experience on a tight course in the Candlestick Park parking lot.

Our driver was a trainer for F1 "pilots" (not meant to offend any fly-guys).  Besides having fun improving my time around the course in the '06 330i, something the driver said sounded wrong.  He said, even in inclement weather & bad traction conditions, AWD has no advantage over RWD.  I must assume he meant pavement.  Two other participants were in the vehicle (a couple, it looked like the wife was going to roll us over but we didn't), preventing me from getting a 'splanation of the driver's pronouncement.   

Does his proclamation make sense?  (For comparison we also drove an '06 Infiniti G35 & '06 Audi A4, both of which had slower times around the very tight course.)  Is it true?  How?  Could it be that, in the hands of a professional, RWDs lighter weight & lower power loss beats AWDs better traction potential?  Does marketing mythology comprise the sum total purpose of AWD in pavement-only vehicles? 

[ctviggen]

All you had to do was wet down the track, and then watch that Audi fly away from the BMW. 

[TomS]

Of course there is no right or wrong answer just opinions.  In either case it's really all about the tires and how power is applied.  I use 4 snows on my 540i and it is a reasonable handler in winter conditions.  Would I put it up against an Audi Quatro with the same four snows - probably not.

[Bob in St. Louis]

He's nuts.
Given the same vehicles, one with AWD, the other with RWD in bad conditions (rain, snow, etc...) the AWD will walk away from the RWD every time. Period.

Bob

[James Romeyn]

Just as an observer, F1 cars seem to fly around corners in driving rain.  Bike racers seem to defy physics in the rain.  As a biker, it's gut wrenching watching their cornering speeds in the rain.  You assume a crash on every corner (of course, they indeed do crash more in the rain).  But these are superhumans on vehicles unknown on the street.  (Interesting that 1000cc Superbikes, which are modified street bikes, now carry more power than the 800cc premiere race-only GP class.  Est 220+hp Superbikes, 200hp GP.  Weight advantage still = quicker times for GP.)    

This would seem worthwhile: Posted times around the same course, same driver preferably, same rain tires, close to stock form, in heavy rain conditions: An Audi or some other AWD vs. a BMW or ? in similar race trim.

[ctviggen]

I think my Saab is a great car in the winter with snows on.  However, I wouldn't want to compare my FWD with an AWD with the same tires and about the same weight. 

[ctviggen]

I just remember seeing 24 hour type races where it was raining and the AWD Porsches and Audis were smoking the BMWs and other cars without AWD.  As for F1 cars, they seem to be very special vehicles.  They're incredibly low to the ground and have tons of downforce on the rear wheels because of the massive wings.  AWD would probably just slow this type of car down. 

[James Romeyn]

He's nuts.
Given the same vehicles, one with AWD, the other with RWD in bad conditions (rain, snow, etc...) the AWD will walk away from the RWD every time. Period.

Bob

Bob
Yes, I would tend to agree w/ you.  But the instructor has authority on this subject regardless that he's on BMWs payroll. 

What about this one specific question:

With the same driver & rain or snow on the track, what AWD vehicle would beat a RWD car, when the RWD car is a F1 car?  If anyone has published any certified results of such a comparison, I'd love to read about it.

Put another way: Is it true that the fastest pavement car known to man, regardless of weather conditions, is in fact a RWD car, & NOT an AWD car.  If true, than it is indeed a fact that the quickest car around a paved track regardless of weather conditions is RWD & NOT AWD. 

But this is of course a very narrow interpretation of the instructors words.  Someone would have to build a car to F1 specs in all ways except for AWD to disprove it, though it may indeed be possible to do that. 

[James Romeyn]

I just remember seeing 24 hour type races where it was raining and the AWD Porsches and Audis were smoking the BMWs and other cars without AWD.  As for F1 cars, they seem to be very special vehicles.  They're incredibly low to the ground and have tons of downforce on the rear wheels because of the massive wings.  AWD would probably just slow this type of car down. 

Bob
Dittos your first sentence; that rings a big bell.  I've seen the same thing.

[Bob in St. Louis]

the instructor has authority on this subject

He's also an authority on smoking crack. 

[James Romeyn]

I THOUGHT his pipe "tobacco" kept going out prematurely!

[Bob in St. Louis]

 

[lcrim]

My present car is a 2006 BMW 325i and my previous car was a 2004 Audi A4 Quattro.  The BMW is better in every way except one.  The Audi w/ decent snow tires could run rings around anything in the snow.  The Bimmer scares the crap out of me in the snow.  Maybe two days a year but very scary nonetheless.

[byteme]

My present car is a 2006 BMW 325i and my previous car was a 2004 Audi A4 Quattro.  The BMW is better in every way except one.  The Audi w/ decent snow tires could run rings around anything in the snow.  The Bimmer scares the crap out of me in the snow.  Maybe two days a year but very scary nonetheless.

I've got a 2005 G35 6speed manual w/ the 19" wheels - I drive it all year long but swap the summer rubber for Blizzaks on 17" wheels for the winter.  handles great.  My wife has a 2003 A4 quattro that is great in the rain and snow but I really don't like it any other time. 

With traction control and snows the G35 handles great and I'm almost never worried about losing it with total RWD.  Audi has done a great job with quattro but we'll never buy another one.  Between the asshat dealers in the area and the other shortcomings of the car we're getting her a G35 AWD next.  It's got a ton of advantages over the Audi not the least of which is the AWD system is RWD biased so on dry pavement it's basically exactly a RWD car (Lexus and Acura AWD are FWD biased so on dry pavement it's like driving a FWD car = CRAP).

To the point of the original post though - no way RWD hangs with AWD in bad weather.  RWD could have an advantage (all else equal) on dry pavement but not in the wet.

[ooheadsoo]

Perhaps he was just saying that if you were a BADASS DRIVER like he was, then there was no advantage to AWD in the snow and wet since he can make the car do what he wants when he wants.  Mere mortals like the rest of us don't have it that good.

[Daygloworange]

In high performance driving RWD usually outperforms AWD. It is a lot more difficult to "steer" an AWD car in high performance driving. You can't power oversteer like you can in a RWD car. You can't flick a car into corners and throttle steer with AWD. In terms of snow and rain, AWD will win everytime. Try the experiment with anything that has switchable 2WD/4WD. There's no comparison, 4WD wins everytime under slippery conditions.

Cheers

[JoshK]

I have to agree with the others.  I have done some long drives in very bad weather, through passes in the Northwest with various types of cars, including RWD, FWD, 4WD & AWD.   My parent's subaru outback, now my outback, takes the cake bar none. 

When heading up to Mt Bachelor from Bend in some really incliment weather, I counted 4 unrelated wrecks.  It was snowing, the roads had a good few inches of hard pack which had probably melted and refroze.  It was like ice.  There was a 4runner upside down on the side of the road, a suburban was high centered on the side embankment and a fender bender or two from cars sliding into eachother.   I was driving and watching as cars in front of me were slipping and sliding, even some with chains, although chains weren't required.      The other vehicles I saw that were slipping and sliding were my own subaru and two other subarus that went flying past me. 

[JoshK]

I will add, that most 4wd suvs and trucks aren't much better than a RWD car in the snow, in fact most times I'd take a FWD honda over a 4wd suv in the snow.  4wd does not equal AWD in snow, ice or deep mud (that is what lockers are for for 4wd offroading).  I guess some of the better SUVs have modernized 4wd to be closer to AWD.

[James Romeyn]

Hey, at least it was good German crack!

The "Bimmer" owner above who apparently knows the difference between a "Bimmer" (4 wheels) & a "Beemer" (2 wheels) gets a star !

C'mon, you guys are all wet!  Did this Cherokee's AWD help this poor lassie?



As a styling point, I think a slightly shorter skirt might be better w/ those bitty wittle legs.  That "tweener" length just doesn't cut it (no pun intended).  Your thoughts?

[Voodoo Rufus]

I have one sentence: There's a reason why WRC cars are AWD.