[James Romeyn]

I bought several uprights decades ago.  Since moving I decided to get a small grand.  Was shocked to find the current msrp for the Yamaha 5-8 grand is $23 k-large.
 
Haven't owned a grand before but am familiar w/ the difference in action, gravity for grands vs. mechanical spring action for upgrights. 

A woman offered me an apparently nice old Chickering not long ago, but I knew we were moving to UT & didn't want to pay to move it.  W/ hindsight I should have bought it but I didn't know exactly where it might fit here till we arrived.   

So here we are & it's time to shop.  Salt Lake City is about 1hr + south, probably the closest source for used grands either retail &/or private party; no used grand dealer in beautiful Cache Valley. 

Is this a reasonable assesment of how a late-model Asian-sourced grand would compare to a nice older US-made grand?

Late model Asian sourced: Tightly integrated, high-fidelity sound, coherent, sharp transients, mechanically sound, stone reliable, no service probably as long as I'll live.  Sterile & varying degrees of mechanical sound quality; much less of this problem if it's a Yamaha or some other better Japanese brand if there are any.

Older US grand: To the same extent it may lack the good qualities described above it will be more musical, more soul-satisfying in overall character.  There will be some minor but acceptable differences in note action & tone, occasional service required but tolerable; a good return on investment of time spent shopping & transporting.  Same as any upright, must ensure it's tuned not too far below concert pitch to avoid having to re-string, which must cost thousands of dollars now-adays.   

Am I in the ballpark?

What are the best print or internet sources to get a good grip on the mechanicals so I can reliably pick out a piano I'll love?

A very naive question for which I apologize, but what is the most common finish on the older US-made grands?  My old San Francisco phone book had the name & phone number of a great guy who sells such pianos; that phone book is one item I regret tossing!  I hope but doubt the local library has the SF phone book.

I own a nice steel-string acoustic guitar & have played some of the best; am familiar w/ overall differences in sound & the characterstic effects of age on guitars.  How 'bout these effects on piano tone, playing action, & reliability?

Thanks for your time.

Jimbolayha

[Russell Dawkins]

In my experience most of the cheaper Asian pianos sound nasty. There are some parallels to be drawn between pianos and speakers in that inferior pianos/speakers have a strange tone and not much dynamic range.

Even Yamahas do not go loud as gracefully as Steinways in my experience recording them. It's like Yamahas have a limit beyond which they will not go, or else start to sound "loud" instead of "big". And Yamahas are the best Asian piano that I'm aware of.

If I were you I would go to the nearest Conservatory of Music or University and visit the piano department and find out who they would recommend as a piano tuner. Tell them you are looking, maybe they can offer advice as to sources in your area, etc.

To help with the purchase you need to know a good tuner/technician before you buy if you are buying secondhand. Also a secondhand piano can benefit greatly from the attention of a piano tech to voicing. Finally, a piano tuner knows all the good pianos in the area and which ones may be coming up for sale.

This forum of piano enthusiasts has 22,000 members and gets 380 posts per day:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php

[WEEZ]

Russell was of w-a-y more help than I can be  but I would echo a few things...

Yamaha are great if you're a 'player'. They have an 'easy' touch and are fun to play. Great key action. But as Russell points out, they sound 'smaller' than a Steinway. Steinways (and Baldwin..are they still made?) can sound 'big' not just loud. If you're a 'listener'..Yamaha's will sound more 'tinkley'....clear.., but lack 'weight'. Steinways (and Baldwin) have a much 'harder' touch.

I learned on a Balwin upright many moons ago. It belongs to my son, now. Holds it's tuning very well...

Just a thought, put a 'want-ad' in the paper...you might be surprised what you might find. Have fun!

WEEZ

[RoadTripper]

As a retired (I quit, actually) piano tuner/rebuilder I believe I can help a bit here. How much dough you want to spend will determine how old your used Steinway will have to be. Unless you go back to about 1910, you won't have to worry about those strings. Actually, the true date there is variable. But in general I wouldn't assume a wholesale collapse of the strings will occur. Target something from the 50s or 60s.

So, get something that doesn't have a cracked up soundboard with loose ribbing, and doesn't have a shot pinblock and possibly budget money for some serious action work. You should be good to go. If you go too far back, you might run into dead bass strings. That will run you some dough if they have to be replaced. It is entirely possible to find a piano that needs none of these kinds of repairs.

Also, ask around at some recording studios or reputable piano teachers as to who does quality rebuilding work. You may need him and he could also help you find this Steinway. Having him tune it before buying is always a good idea.

Of course, I am joking about the Steinway. You can plug any piano brand in there that you want. Same principles will apply.

If you don't care about getting the grand piano touch (and I wouldn't since I am not Arturo Rubinstein) I'd get a Korg with 88 wood keys, and run it through your VMPS. You'd be up and running today for about a grand. (Get it - you'd have a grand piano after all).

[Russell Dawkins]

Actually, that's a great idea and a way to get more value from your stereo system.

I'd venture that a good electronic piano now sounds better through a good hi-fi than a poor real piano.

Some of the best synth piano sounds I've heard come from Rolands, but again the folks on that forum could probably chime in.

[TomS]

I have a Baldwin Pianovelle GPS3500 digital grand which we love.  It has the full baby grand case in piano black and great action on the keyboard (for a digital).  Sound is quite good through the built-in amp/speakers which I believe were actually Polk or some such thing.  It has a 2g drive for MIDI as well.  Though it looks like a baby grand, in terms of weight, it is fairly easy to move around as required.

[James Romeyn]

C'mon you guys, I go upstairs, eat the wife's great stew for dinner, come back down to the basement & you're giving me only about a half dozen great, educated, extremely useful replies!   

What is this, communist Russsia or something?  I'm embarrassed.  I mean really, a referal to a crummy piano forum w/ only 22k members & 380 posts per day?  What am I supposed to do w/ that? 

Thanks a ton!

Who were the other big builders besides Steinway?  Chickering, etc? 

Happy jim   
PS: I could almost hit Utah State University w/ a spitball, well, kinda...will ride my bike over to check into the music dept shortly.  An esp welcome suggestion!  The ragdoll twins above are similar to our first ragdoll: they love music, & don't seem to mind it loud one bit! 

[NealH]

Charles Steiff was another fine builder of large pianos (Upright and Grand).  One of the best Grands that I ever heard was a Steiff.   

[craig223]

Look for colleges in your area that have a good music program.  Several colleges near my home town have summer music programs and sell their pianos after the program ends.  They rotate out their pianos at least once per year.  You can pickup a good grand for 50-60% of retail that is a year old, or less.

[RoadTripper]

Petrof is a nice line (A Czech piano which has been marketed in the US for about 10 years). The basic Chickering, Knabe, and Mason&Hamlin are the three that usually get spoken of together. I like Knabe best of those three.

[lazydays]

I bought several uprights decades ago.  Since moving I decided to get a small grand.  Was shocked to find the current msrp for the Yamaha 5-8 grand is $23 k-large.
 
Haven't owned a grand before but am familiar w/ the difference in action, gravity for grands vs. mechanical spring action for upgrights. 

A woman offered me an apparently nice old Chickering not long ago, but I knew we were moving to UT & didn't want to pay to move it.  W/ hindsight I should have bought it but I didn't know exactly where it might fit here till we arrived.   

So here we are & it's time to shop.  Salt Lake City is about 1hr + south, probably the closest source for used grands either retail &/or private party; no used grand dealer in beautiful Cache Valley. 

Is this a reasonable assesment of how a late-model Asian-sourced grand would compare to a nice older US-made grand?

Late model Asian sourced: Tightly integrated, high-fidelity sound, coherent, sharp transients, mechanically sound, stone reliable, no service probably as long as I'll live.  Sterile & varying degrees of mechanical sound quality; much less of this problem if it's a Yamaha or some other better Japanese brand if there are any.

Older US grand: To the same extent it may lack the good qualities described above it will be more musical, more soul-satisfying in overall character.  There will be some minor but acceptable differences in note action & tone, occasional service required but tolerable; a good return on investment of time spent shopping & transporting.  Same as any upright, must ensure it's tuned not too far below concert pitch to avoid having to re-string, which must cost thousands of dollars now-adays.   

Am I in the ballpark?

What are the best print or internet sources to get a good grip on the mechanicals so I can reliably pick out a piano I'll love?

A very naive question for which I apologize, but what is the most common finish on the older US-made grands?  My old San Francisco phone book had the name & phone number of a great guy who sells such pianos; that phone book is one item I regret tossing!  I hope but doubt the local library has the SF phone book.

I own a nice steel-string acoustic guitar & have played some of the best; am familiar w/ overall differences in sound & the characterstic effects of age on guitars.  How 'bout these effects on piano tone, playing action, & reliability?

Thanks for your time.

Jimbolayha

have a friend that uses nothing but Kawaii, and they sound is very nice. Yamaha is another nice one as well as Chang. I doubt that any of these will sound quite as good as a Baldwin, but then your speaking of a lot more money. Might add here that I've heard several of them made in Slovakia that were very good too. At one time I was looking at baby grands, and almost bought a 5'7" baby grand in piano black. Might toss in here that a really good place to look for one is at the local universitys. They usually have a sale every other year or so, and many times you can get a deal that's near impossable to beat.
gary

[lazydays]

Petrof is a nice line (A Czech piano which has been marketed in the US for about 10 years). The basic Chickering, Knabe, and Mason&Hamlin are the three that usually get spoken of together. I like Knabe best of those three.

know a guy who has a Petrof upright, and it's nice. Not quite as smooth as a grand, but still very nice.
gary

[James Romeyn]

If you don't care about getting the grand piano touch (and I wouldn't since I am not Arturo Rubinstein) I'd get a Korg with 88 wood keys, and run it through your VMPS. You'd be up and running today for about a grand. (Get it - you'd have a grand piano after all).

Boy am I slow...I didn't get the joke about the "grand" till the second reading.  Thanks!  I may have to try an electronic piano before I purchase the real McCoy.  I'm sure the technology is a universe away from when I was programming my ARP 2600 synthesizer for Roy Buchanan at the Sausalito Record Plant.     

[S Clark]

I always liked the bass of the Masin Hamlin best, Knabe has all the attributes of Steinway but just not quite as ..... I can't find the word but they are very good,  for treble and touch I like the Chickering.  Emerson wasn't as consistant as those mentioned, but could make a pretty decent grand for alot less.  For the absolute best bass, treble, tone, etc. Steinway is unchallenged by US makers (although I still like Chickering keyboards best).  I think I'd get an electronic over a Yamaha. Baldwins are also very nice, but just never did as much for me.
My $.02

My pianos- 5'10" Emerson, 6'3" Steinway, 7'10" no brand Austrian (1850's vintage), and a Chickering spinet.

[James Romeyn]

I always liked the bass of the Masin Hamlin best, Knabe has all the attributes of Steinway but just not quite as ..... I can't find the word but they are very good,  for treble and touch I like the Chickering.  Emerson wasn't as consistant as those mentioned, but could make a pretty decent grand for alot less.  For the absolute best bass, treble, tone, etc. Steinway is unchallenged by US makers (although I still like Chickering keyboards best).  I think I'd get an electronic over a Yamaha. Baldwins are also very nice, but just never did as much for me.
My $.02

My pianos- 5'10" Emerson, 6'3" Steinway, 7'10" no brand Austrian (1850's vintage), and a Chickering spinet.

That was waay helfpful.  Many thanks.  You've a lot great experience.  We had a fire at the lady's house w/ the old Chickering (WWII vintage), my crew was cleaning up & I couldn't resist asking her about it.  It had a sweet vintage look, nicely aged walnut if memory serves, & attractive playing & tonal qualities. 

I think the used piano guy in SF said Chickering made other brands.  Does that sound right?  Anyone know the names? 

[Imperial]

You do have pianos dubbed as "Upright Grands..." You know.
First. A good link page, from Norway, where else...  ...
http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html

Now back to "upright grands..."
The name Astin-Weight  does come to mind.
A unique piano type. They have a very "powerfull" soundboard.
Great dynamics, and a full sound with awesome harmonics and overtones...
This one upright that will behave in every way like it's a Grand.

When we talk about used Grands, rebuilt ones maybe. It is possible to get a hold of
some really good ones.

Bechstein is a good choice if one plays more softly.
Blutner is also good for this type of play.
August Foerster is a good choice also.

I can see that Baldwin could also be good, it does have a wet dry heat to the sound.
Very, what can you call it... easy to play complex stuff on! Yeah!
Like , wintergames '88 ! Sounds really nice on a Baldwin!!! (the first note sheet i bought..  )

Other than this I feel one simply has to test the piano one is considering.
I'm sure I dont have to tell you this as two pianos of the same type, maybe even with consecutive serialnumbers, will not sound the same... there will be differences...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bF0wXF-E-M

Blutner is nice, Bechstein is also really nice I belive!
Steinway? Ah, you just pay more really.

When we talk used, we also talk about finding that one piano tech that really knows his stuff!
That will guide you to the right one... Coz, this is even more difficult than Hifi... it is!!!

Pianos need to be kept in tune regularly, or they will loose the "shape" and you can't tune them back to shape! You will have to rebuild it, because some of the parts are not good anymore!

This is a thing to keep in mind! Get the tuning history of a piano checked up! If it's tuned to infrequently it is gonna be a bad piano!

Some types are more sensitive to this than others.

Imperial

[James Romeyn]

Imperial
Thanks very much for your insight.

Decades ago a friend had an "upright grand".  I understand that the soundboard size mimics that of a baby grand.  But is it not also true that an upright of any kind, even your Astin-Weight, by the nature of it's verticaly oriented keys, must have a spring return vs. the gravity return of all true grand pianos?

Thanks again for your consideration.
Jimbalayha 

[Imperial]

The Astin-Weight have a different key actuator than is normally used.
Counters this to a good degree. As far as I know.
They also makes Grand type pianos. On special order I believe?

But what you are referring to is a consideration.
It it possible to have a piano rebuilt to a different key action type, some do this, as they simply get used
to a certain force in the keys.
A good piano re-builder/restorer/tech can dial in the keys to your liking!!! Good to have this in mind also.
(bound/rebound weighting also bound/rebound speed and other "key" parameters)
The key mechanism can be custom built also, lots of options exist.

What you SHOULD do before you buy any grand, is to talk to a good tech about all this. And get up to speed as it were. Maybe you will own your grand for what 10-30 years if you buy the right one! They do need upkeep! Some types are more expensive to own, some parts are now available in more modern fashion, and will last longer between tune ups, and so on...

I think the older the piano in question is, the more careful you have to be, and having a good piano tuner/tech have a look at it is always a good idea.

It is normal to have a piano tuner sort of , use the same guy for a period of time you know.
If you know of a good one close to you, use him/her to help you find a good piano.

If you don't know, go hunting for the best tuner you can. It is gonna pay of in the end!!
And, have your piano moved by a good moving firm. Really that's something you must NOT skimp on!

Take it slow and hunt well, Jim. And do tell us how it "plays" out..
Here's a link to a book on the subject worth reading. http://www.pianobook.com/

Imperial

[Scott F.]

Who were the other big builders besides Steinway?  Chickering, etc? 

I'm really surprised that nobody has mentioned Bosendorfer. Hope you've got some deep pockets though.


Heres a link I ran across on the .....Bluebook of Piano's

[lonewolfny42]

Who were the other big builders besides Steinway?  Chickering, etc? 

I'm really surprised that nobody has mentioned Bosendorfer. Hope you've got some deep pockets though.


Heres a link I ran across on the .....Bluebook of Piano's

The NY Audio Rave held a meet there....in their NY showroom.....very nice piano's !!!