FLAC???

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boead

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #40 on: 17 Apr 2007, 12:45 am »
and I bet you think aiff is apple lossless too!

it really wasn't my intent to get into a heated debate on this forum.

the bottom line is if you don't mind spending the time coding and decoding, compressing and uncompressing
all to save a few megabytes than use FLAC...it seems to be one of the better lossless codecs.

otherwise, use WAV or AIFF. there's really nothing left to say.

is that clear enough for you boead? and legibility or the lack thereof relates to handwriting, not coherence of thought.

You bet wrong.

No debate here just trying to correct some seemingly misleading information.


I have worked as an audio and video editor a graphic artist and am currently a magazine publisher in the Audio, Video and Musical instrument industries. But I guess your right; I need to go back to school.


acd483, is English your first language? Not being facetious, you just don’t seem to understand or comprehend.

You say that “…if you don't mind spending the time coding and decoding, compressing and uncompressing all to save a few megabytes than use FLAC…” I don’t think anyone using FLAC spends any time decoding, compressing and uncompressing anything. I think you are confusing people and matters by putting obscuring facts.  And if you comprehended the postings in this thread you would have read that I personally don’t use FLAC.

Maybe you just need the last word. Go ahead take it, I'm done here.


Gooberdude, your analogy makes absolutely NO sense. Smoke less pot and read a little more.

acd483

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Re: FLAC???
« Reply #41 on: 17 Apr 2007, 03:55 am »
and I bet you think aiff is apple lossless too!

it really wasn't my intent to get into a heated debate on this forum.

the bottom line is if you don't mind spending the time coding and decoding, compressing and uncompressing
all to save a few megabytes than use FLAC...it seems to be one of the better lossless codecs.

otherwise, use WAV or AIFF. there's really nothing left to say.

is that clear enough for you boead? and legibility or the lack thereof relates to handwriting, not coherence of thought.

You bet wrong.

No debate here just trying to correct some seemingly misleading information.


I have worked as an audio and video editor a graphic artist and am currently a magazine publisher in the Audio, Video and Musical instrument industries. But I guess your right; I need to go back to school.


acd483, is English your first language? Not being facetious, you just don’t seem to understand or comprehend.

You say that “…if you don't mind spending the time coding and decoding, compressing and uncompressing all to save a few megabytes than use FLAC…” I don’t think anyone using FLAC spends any time decoding, compressing and uncompressing anything. I think you are confusing people and matters by putting obscuring facts.  And if you comprehended the postings in this thread you would have read that I personally don’t use FLAC.

Maybe you just need the last word. Go ahead take it, I'm done here.


Gooberdude, your analogy makes absolutely NO sense. Smoke less pot and read a little more.


Now this is just too easy! Yes, english is my fourth language!!!! It I love!

Everyone reading this thread knows one thing...the amount of time it takes to import (rip) a disc to the computer. If you rip to an uncompressed format, the speed is quite fast. If you choose to import via codec, the speed is reduced, sometimes greatly...so yes, you are actively wasting time by importing to a compressed version. And if you do decide to return to uncompressed WAV format, you have to decode all of the FLAC files. That all takes time pal.

jman66

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #42 on: 17 Apr 2007, 09:52 am »
Unless you're running antiquated hardware or extremely low on system resources, WAV to FLAC and FLAC to WAV compression/decompression takes seconds for a given track. Totally a non-issue.
Now, if you're talking a mass conversion from one format to the other, then yes it will take time but that's what one expects when performing such a task.

lcrim

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #43 on: 17 Apr 2007, 02:34 pm »
It seems to me that, in the interest of clarity, an opinion was offered that playback from ripped wav files sounds better than playback from flac files.  Since a flac file must be uncompressed in order to play and when it is uncompressed it is identical to the original wav then it follows that there is something amiss in the ripping or the playback or the perception that would make identical files sound different (better or worse is a judgement.)
Another point that apparently needs reiteration is that wav files can't be tagged and flac files can be tagged.  Since many people use the ripped file in other playback devices (iPod etc.), it becomes very desirable to have tags, in addition to keeping track of large collections of ripped files.
The compression step, at least in EAC, can be totally automated.  The decompression step is also totally automated in Slimserver or Foobar. 
There is then no reasonable argument for using wav instead of flac.

boead

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #44 on: 17 Apr 2007, 05:31 pm »
There is then no reasonable argument for using wav instead of flac.

I like iTunes. I like their library and I have an iPod and nearly 100GB of MP3’s. I also use a Multi-Plugin app for iTunes that lets me use Foobar2000 as the playback engine for iTunes which sounds better (to me) then the QT engine iTunes normally uses.

Foobar won’t play Apple Lossless and iTunes won’t recognize the FLAC wrapper. So I have no choice but to listen to WAV’s if I want to use iTunes with the Foobar engine. iTunes will tag my waves within in its library and if I export (convert) the WAV’s from iTunes I can keep the tags. So it works for me.


lcrim

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #45 on: 17 Apr 2007, 06:18 pm »
dBpoweramp allows conversion from flac to Apple Lossless, I do it when I want to add songs to my iPod.  As long as its lossless it can be converted with no loss of quality and its free.  The tags are not destroyed and are almost a necessity in this process. 

acd483

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Re: FLAC???
« Reply #46 on: 17 Apr 2007, 06:26 pm »
My reasonable argument is this:

WAV is cross platform and iTunes friendly...for me that's enough. And as boead rightly says, nothing is better than iTunes (especially his hybrid method, though it's not available for mac users), and if you use an ipod, you have to use iTunes (which exports the tags.)

FLAC sounds great for PC users with no Mac friends and no ipods!

p.s. lcrlm, you've got a handful more programs on your computer to get the same result as me...what's the point? With hard drive space cheaper than gas, there's simply no reason to go through the extra hoop.

bpape

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Re: FLAC???
« Reply #47 on: 17 Apr 2007, 06:33 pm »
Network bandwidth.  That's the other thing that people forget.  It's not just hard disk space but basically running 1/2 the data over the network and let the hardware decode at the other end.  As our networks get loaded down more and more (VOIP, digital cable, http, etc.) and we go with more wireless devices, things get crowded very quickly.

Sit in my house sometime with me on the web doing work, my wife on the web doing work, my kid gaming on the web, and the Squeezebox playing.  I'll take the bandwidth savings.

Bryan

lcrim

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #48 on: 17 Apr 2007, 07:15 pm »
If he is using foobar as his player then he's using a USB device. 
A Squeezebox has a buffer to reassemble the packets so network traffic isn't a big issue. 
As for the number or size of programs installed, I use an older dedicated laptop in the laundry room w/ a pair of 300 GB drives attached via USB.  I used to have a USB device but have gone to all SB because its more convenient, the noise (including RFI & EMI from the drives) is elsewhere than the listening environment, I can access the GUI w/ a browser from anywhere I carry my personal laptop, I can kill the music w/ a click on the SB remote (important because my preamp EE/MM has no remote and the phone still rings.)
When I want to add some music to the iPod, I copy it over the network w/ the admin share and convert it w/ dBpoweramp in a batch. 
I am a network admin but none of this is terribly complex stuff. 
I may have jumped on a newcomer a bit, and I apologize if I came off as a pushy jackass.  My point is or was that wav and uncompressed flac have to be the same or copying data around would be fraught with problems and it isn't.

acd483

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Re: FLAC???
« Reply #49 on: 17 Apr 2007, 10:00 pm »
You PC guys really do complicate life...I guess it's simply a different mindset. My uncle's the same way...lots of superfluous junk on his PC, but his mind whips through it all, and it's all necessary (apparently).

Me, I'm a Mac guy since day one. I've got my Mac Mini with companion hard drive...optical out into the DAC or over the aiport express to my bedroom system. The mini is plugged into the HDTV complete with its own remote and apple's "front row" which displays album art and song info beautifully on my Aquos. It's so minimalist, simple and elegant. No fuss! No squeezebox thing! No codecing.

To me, the best arguement for uncompressed is streamlining life. Itunes has it setup so that I insert a CD, it automatically rips to WAV and spits the disc out. Love it!

ctviggen

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Re: FLAC???
« Reply #50 on: 17 Apr 2007, 10:13 pm »
While I like the iTunes interface, the iTunes ripping tool is one of the worst.  It'll rip songs that EAC won't touch.  I've had iTunes rip CDs into songs that were so bad they sounded as if they were skipping.  They were terrible. 

dB Cooper

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #51 on: 17 Apr 2007, 10:54 pm »
If you want to use FLAC files on the Mac, try Max for ripping/encoding (great free batch ripping/encoding app!) and VLC media player for playback. There are a few bugs still, but it supports many formats, playlists etc.
There is a FLAC plugin for iTunes, but I am reluctant to use anything that is a 0.2 beta. Xiph has a plugin that allows Itunes to play Ogg files with no problems on my pooter. Unless I want all the extra gingerbread in iTunes, which I frequently don't, I often use VLC.

Double Ugly

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #52 on: 18 Apr 2007, 01:20 am »
While I like the iTunes interface, the iTunes ripping tool is one of the worst.  It'll rip songs that EAC won't touch.  I've had iTunes rip CDs into songs that were so bad they sounded as if they were skipping.  They were terrible. 
I had the same experience with iTunes ripping.  Great tool, bad execution according to my ears.  I really wanted to use it, too, for a myriad of reasons.  But the degradation in quality wasn't worth it.

dB is right about Max.  It isn't as good as Easy CD/DA Extractor IMO (not as intuitive, not quite as fast, etc.), but until such time as an OSX version is offered (it won't be), it will continue to serve this Mac/FLAC kind of guy quite well thankyouverymuch. 

I have more than enough HDD space for the foreseeable future, but I haven't found a valid reason to rip to WAV when I can save space and enjoy all my CDs with no sacrifice in sonic quality.

But as always, to each his own.  This stuff certainly isn't worth arguing over IMO.  As long as I can do what I want with *my* CDs and *my* system, I don't honestly care what someone else does with theirs.

-Jim

PS - Very nice, interesting website, Anthony.  :thumb:

boead

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #53 on: 18 Apr 2007, 03:15 am »
I just used dBpoweramp CD Ripper with Sheryl Crows C’mon,C’mon (13 tracks)

WAV = 571MB
FLAC = 402MB
OGG = 192MB (maximum quality CBR, 500kbps)
MP3 =  129MB (maximum quality CBR, 320kbps)


dBpoweramp CD Ripper is nice and easy to use.


So this QT plug-in from Xiph (xiph-qt-win32-0.1.5) allows OGG support in iTunes but what about FLAC?

Under Windows (Vista32), I’ve been using this:
Multi-Plugin 2.5 for iTunes 7
http://www.aqua-soft.org/board/showthread.php?t=41188
Unfortunately the most recent update for iTunes won’t work with it. The developer will most certainly have a working revision soon or just use the last version of iTunes 7 in the mean time.



acd483

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Re: FLAC???
« Reply #54 on: 18 Apr 2007, 03:23 am »
Jim,

Thank you, I always appreciate it when people respond to the work.

As for iTunes...I've never had audio degredation issues. Wonder if it's a PC thing?

bpape

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Re: FLAC???
« Reply #55 on: 18 Apr 2007, 03:49 am »
I think it's more a matter that iTunes doesn't care what it's ripping.  EAC looks and checks to make sure what it's ripping is right and consistent.  If it's not, it'll try again or mark it as bad.

Bryan

boead

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #56 on: 18 Apr 2007, 12:21 pm »
Jim,

Thank you, I always appreciate it when people respond to the work.

As for iTunes...I've never had audio degredation issues. Wonder if it's a PC thing?


LOL, I was thinking the same thing except I wondered if it was a Mac thing?

If I set EAC to be ‘faster’ it’ll rip as quickly as iTunes otherwise its very slow. But still, even with all the error detection and correction on, I seldom have EAC not rip something or report any errors. Some of my old CDR’s maybe. I’ve come across some of the first (and really old) disc’s I’ve made that are just no good anymore but that’s not the fault of EAC or iTunes, it’s just a disc gone bad.

What do you guys do with your CD’s, use them as coasters?


I’m sure EAC is a more competent ripper but the results from iTunes have been excellent for me.
But then again, I can’t hear the difference between a WAV and a FLAC so my opinion has little value. I also can’t hear the difference between lossless and max quality mp3 on an iPod. I can believe that the mp3 sounds worse but it’s difficult to tell the difference between shades of shit, it’s all shit from an iPod.

« Last Edit: 18 Apr 2007, 12:43 pm by boead »

mcgsxr

Re: FLAC???
« Reply #57 on: 18 Apr 2007, 12:33 pm »
I don't have an iPod, so I cannot comment on that - my brother bought a FLAC friendly portable that I would love to see though, since my whole collection is now FLAC.

With my cd's, they just sit on a bookshelf, taking up space - have not packed them away or sold them yet, but certainly am thinking of doing so.  I have the music backed up, they really are superfluous now.

I have one cd that I cannot for the life of me burn in FLAC with EAC.  It is the 2nd cd of John Mayer's "Any Given Thursday" live album.

http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:Any%20Given%20Thursday:1921955161;_ylt=AoOoqvHYo54m8H0AwNcG3iBUvQcF;_ylu=X3oDMTBzZTVhM3RqBF9zAzk1OTUxMTEzBGx0AzQEc2VjA2FydHByb2Q-

I would LOVE to get this burned, since I really LOVE the live version of "Why Georgia", and actually do not have a cd source in my system anymore!  1 source system - FLAC via Bolder SB3.

acd483

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Re: FLAC???
« Reply #58 on: 18 Apr 2007, 08:22 pm »
Jim,

Thank you, I always appreciate it when people respond to the work.

As for iTunes...I've never had audio degredation issues. Wonder if it's a PC thing?


LOL, I was thinking the same thing except I wondered if it was a Mac thing?

If I set EAC to be ‘faster’ it’ll rip as quickly as iTunes otherwise its very slow. But still, even with all the error detection and correction on, I seldom have EAC not rip something or report any errors. Some of my old CDR’s maybe. I’ve come across some of the first (and really old) disc’s I’ve made that are just no good anymore but that’s not the fault of EAC or iTunes, it’s just a disc gone bad.

What do you guys do with your CD’s, use them as coasters?


I’m sure EAC is a more competent ripper but the results from iTunes have been excellent for me.
But then again, I can’t hear the difference between a WAV and a FLAC so my opinion has little value. I also can’t hear the difference between lossless and max quality mp3 on an iPod. I can believe that the mp3 sounds worse but it’s difficult to tell the difference between shades of shit, it’s all shit from an iPod.



I don't doubt the Mac program runs better in a Mac environment.

As for iPods, I think they are fine, not great, but perfect for their purpose. I wouldn't use one as a source, but for travelling...I love it. And yes, I fill mine with uncompressed music.

JeffB

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Re: FLAC???
« Reply #59 on: 18 Apr 2007, 10:07 pm »
mcgsxr,

It is possible that your John Mayer CD has a Sony rootkit installed on it.
If you are unfamiliar with this issue look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Copy_Protection
http://news.com.com/Sony+settles+rootkit+class+action+lawsuit/2100-1002_3-6012173.html
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/10/0024259&from=rss
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/31/2016223&tid=172&tid=158

In essence, the CD copied software onto your computer that runs every time your OS starts.
This software prevents you from burning a copy.
What is even worse is this software has bugs in it that can allow a third party to gain full control over your computer.
Sony's uninstall program is even worse than the original.

I believe somewhere I read that the letters
xcp
will appear somewhere on the cd case if the copy protection is present.