[Vapor Audio]

So my Uncle has comissioned me to build him something for his huge room, 26'x19' with 14' vaulted ceilings and seating position about 15'-16' away.  My goal is to be able to give him something that'll produce 105db reference levels at his seating position without straining. 

Obviously the first thought was to build the new LS-6 line array, but he's not so sure he wants something that will likely weigh 300 pounds or more. 

Next thought was (and still is) to build the RAW RA-8, but honestly I don't know that they'll be able to fill the room like a need.  Afterall it is just a MTM with a ton of woofers filling in baffle step, and I'm familiar enough with my MTMWW using GR drivers that I doubt they could fill up that room.

Soooo ....

My next thought is something like a modular mini line array.  I was thinking bottom module for each side with 2 12" subs, and top module with a mini array.  And then, just this morning I came across this:

http://www.rbhsound.com/t2.shtml

That's almost exactly what I was thinking, except with Danny's drivers of course   The question now is how can I model something like that, or can I?  Or is this going to be a build first, then measure and tweak design? 

What I'm thinking would be more like the typical array, just smaller - using something like 3 or 4 BG Neo 3's on the inside, and 4-6 M-130's or 130x's on the outside - or maybe some of the new 165LS drivers.

My biggest question is how do I pick a crossover point when using multiple tweeters?  Do I need to measure them all together and see what they can handle, or is there a way to calculate it?  And how do I decide on number of drivers I should use, and how to wire them?

Danny, I'm going to probably give you a call and ask all these same questions   But based on a discussion at another forum, and talking with a friend, I think there are quite a few people out there interested in building something like this - more dynamic potential than a single tweeter can provide, but less costly complex and bulky than a full array.  Maybe this will turn into a build and results thread too!

[BobM]

If you want dynamics then why not just go with horns? You can pick up a vintage set of Klipsch Heresies or Cornwalls, or something similar from JBL, fairly inexpensively.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1180201637
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1179266738

Enjoy,
Bob

[Vapor Audio]

Don't mean to be offensive, but Klipsch is a dirty word to me.  I've never heard one that didn't give me a near instantaneous gag reflex.

Right now he has RF-62 fronts, the RC-62 center, and some dipole Klipsch surrounds.  They have no chance of filling up that room, if you try they just spit and sputter, and the tweeter sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard. 

This is all just my opinion of course, so please don't be offended.  You can love Klipsch at the same time I hate it.  Hell, I love RX-7's and the rotary engine, but my Uncle (the guy I'm building for) is a die-hard Mustang guy ... we get along just fine

[Blaine_M]

Turbo...I'm assuming those are newer models.  I've always heard the old Klipsh stuff is way better than the new stuff.

[Ettepet]

Obviously the first thought was to build the new LS-6 line array, but he's not so sure he wants something that will likely weigh 300 pounds or more.

The av123-site quotes these as 145lbs a piece.  I would think most speakers capable of serious (high-quality) spl would come close to these numbers.  What weight are you aiming at?

[konut]

Yes, there are too many unknowns here. For instance, are you willing to biamplify? How big are the amps are you planing on using(watts)? Its a lot easier to get a dynamic system with efficient speakers than with inefficient speakers, but you can if you have enough power and the drivers don't compress when driven hard. While line sources do present a gain in efficiency over, say, a MTM or TM, you need room for the wave front to develope. Thats one of the few pieces of info we do have, the room is big enough, but for a full frequency presentation a pair of subs would be called for, hopefully biamped, to relieve the line source of low frequency demands .

[ttan98]

An alternative approach, use open baffle using highly efficient(>95-105db) full range/midrange, woofer, and tweeter. The sound dynamic is astounding....

There are many websites/forum around discussing this idea....

This will be my next project.

[Danny Richie]

but he's not so sure he wants something that will likely weigh 300 pounds or more. 

They won't be that heavy.

My next thought is something like a modular mini line array.  I was thinking bottom module for each side with 2 12" subs, and top module with a mini array.  And then, just this morning I came across this:

http://www.rbhsound.com/t2.shtml

That speaker is actually a mess. The multiple tweeters spaced that far apart will just cancel each other out all over the place. The response will look like a roller coaster.

What I'm thinking would be more like the typical array, just smaller - using something like 3 or 4 BG Neo 3's on the inside, and 4-6 M-130's or 130x's on the outside - or maybe some of the new 165LS drivers.

3 or 4 Neo 3's is way too small of a line. You'd have to keep your ear right in line with it or all the highs will be gone. Above or below the on axis response will have no highs.

more dynamic potential than a single tweeter can provide,

Actually the tweeter is not a limiting factor on the dynamics. The OB-7's use a single Neo 3 pdr and will give you tons of output if you pour the power to it.

What your uncle really needs is a LS-6 or LS-9 and subs to go with it. There is no cheap way to go about it to get this same result and no way of scaling it down to less than an LS-6.

[Vapor Audio]

What your uncle really needs is a LS-6 or LS-9 and subs to go with it. There is no cheap way to go about it to get this same result and no way of scaling it down to less than an LS-6.

Damn you 

Well I'm going to take my MTMWW's over there this weekend, see if they have any chance in that room.  I doubt they will.  I'm not totally sure a mini array couldn't get the job done, but also don't want to build something for him and it not work the way he wants.  I know an LS6 would be killer in his room, but it's sure stretching the budget tight if he does go that way.  He's giving me $5000 to build a full 5.1 with big subs, and I need to build him a new amp for the mains and center too.  Still, I'm thinking I'm going to advise him towards the array and let him decide. 

I do think anything with a single tweeter is going to be a limiting factor.  In that room, a speaker that loses 6db per doubling of distance will need to produce over 125db at 1 meter.  Maybe a Millenium could do that with 1mm of xmax, but what else could?  A mini-array of tweets could do that.  Obviously the key with an array is only losing 3db per doubling of distance.

Another thing in consideration is that he says he always is sitting on the couch when he watches a movie or listens to music - I'm really not too concerned with off-axis problems.  Even if he's standing up 15 feet away, he'll only be a few degrees off axis, and there won't be any problems.

I guess I am ruling out the RA8, I don't think it could do it - even with it's high sensitivity. 

I suppose what I'm asking Danny, is if you forget about over 15 degree off axis considerations, could I do a mini-array of something like 3 Neo 3's and 4 to 6 M-130's (or 130x's) and have it work?  Work meaning easily produce 105db at a 15' seating position, and sound fantastic?  If so, then I could do it all on budget and not have to skimp anywhere.  Oh, and the mains are only going to need to produce down to 80hz, because of the big subs he insists on

[Danny Richie]

I suppose what I'm asking Danny, is if you forget about over 15 degree off axis considerations, could I do a mini-array of something like 3 Neo 3's and 4 to 6 M-130's (or 130x's) and have it work?

Hmmmm, not really.

Oh, and the mains are only going to need to produce down to 80hz, because of the big subs he insists on

80Hz is pretty high for a sub to have to play. The higher it plays the closer it has to be to the speakers.

A more ideal situation is a main speaker that will cover all but the first octave or all but half of the first octave. Then it is easy to integrate.

[Catbo]

> TurboFC3S Said:

>Don't mean to be offensive, but Klipsch is a dirty word to me.  I've never heard one that didn't give me a near instantaneous gag reflex.


It's Obvious that you have never heard a Klipsch speaker well setup.  Klipsch speakers must be given high quality components, the old saying garbage in....garbage out is true with Klipsch.  Klipsch speakers like to have slightly to the warm side Amp and a very smooth Amp for the HF.   Amps like Yamaha and Sony do  not go well with Klipsch and make them harsh with too hot highs.   If you get such things from Klipsch, it is coming from the components and that is why with Klipsch it is VERY IMPORTANT to choose the right gear for them, being that Klipsch speakers are very revealing speakers and very dynamic, this goes for every component used, such as CD Player, Pre-Amp, Amp, etc.

The Old vs. New Klipsch doesn't fly with me.  The New and Old Klipsch are very good and both equally important for the right gear to sound stunning.  I own many different Klipsch speakers from new to older as well as some very high-end expensive speakers and yet Klipsch is still among some of my most favorites for their very LIVE, REAL, and very dynamic sound.  Though Klipsch may seem like a dirty word to you and I can understand that not all speakers will appeal to everyone, Klipsch has a very strong following all these years for a very good reason and that is what has kept them in business all these years and with their new line the Reference series has put them in the #1 top selling group in America.  That has to say something for their sound.  Their Klipsch RF-3 was the top #1 selling speaker for many years.

[cujobob]

While I respect the fact you like Klipsch products, I have to disagree with you on a few things.  Bose is a top selling speaker company as well and while they make better products than HTIB crap...they are not really good values compared to what else is out there (like Klipsch IMHO only).  Klipsch is known for a rather bright sound and is often described as fatiguing.  I've heard top of the line Conrad Johnson equipment on some Klipsch reference series and was impressed with the the sound...but even that was hard to handle for extended listening.  Neutrality is quite often a consumer's goal and its really hard to paint that brand of speakers as being neutral.  If someone likes that sound, more power to them...its lively and dynamic and can get to extreme DBs without a ton of wattage...everyone has their own thing...I guess I'm majorly turned off by speakers who used to advertise "Monster Cabling inside"...


/endrant