[drphoto]

I frequently see people posting with the comment that they've 'gotta get some tubes', whether in digital ouput, preamp, etc.

While I will agree that great tube equipment can be magical, tubes in and of themselves, are not necessarily great.

For example (and I mentioned this in a previous post in the Odyssey forum) my Tempest SS pre kicked the crap out of two cheap tube pre's, an entry level ConradJohnson, and a modded Dyna (don't know the model) and it easily held its own against a very expensive AudioResearch. (the Tempest may have had an edge in dynamics) I don't want to sound like I'm shilling for my buddy Klaus, I'm only trying to make a general point.

Another example, is my current Stan Warren modded aiwa changer/MSB dac setup ...way better than my previous AH!4000 tubed CD deck. You name it...detail, smoothness, liquidity...everything better. And no tubes.

Again.....this is not an anti tube stance....just trying to say tubes alone won't send you to audio heaven.

In fact, if I end up with a higher efficiency speaker, I would seriously consider a GOOD tube amp.

[Hantra]

Preach it brother!  

I just got out of tubes.  I am done with tubes until I hear something that impresses me more than what I have had in the past.  

And not just amplifiers. . .  I just changed from one of the best tube pre-amplifiers I have ever heard, over to a McIntosh C41 pre, and it kicks the crap out of the Frenchy tube pre!  It has so much more naturalness, and weight.  Sounds more like music.  And that's what I like!  

I have one tube in my system now, and it's in my DAC.  It is just a buffer, and doesn't do much, but I am satisfied with it.  

Tubes scare me now.  It seems that tubes are very temperamental.  Especially NOS tubes.  Don't get me wrong, I have heard some of the best sound from tubes, but then again, I am extremely satisfied with my tubeless setup right now. .  

B

[Tyson]

Hantra, surely you haven't gotten rid of the tubeDAC have you?

[Hantra]

Hantra, surely you haven't gotten rid of the tubeDAC have you?

Hahaha!!  No way!  Until I can find something better that's less than $6500, I am hanging with the TubeDAC.  

B

[Tyson]

Then not all tubes scare you, eh?  

Just pokin a little fun.  I'm actually considering selling my tubeDAC, since I rarely listen to it.  I was going to use in in my dedicated headphone setup, but I've decided to re-integrate the headphones in to the HT system, and thus I have no use for the tubeDAC.  Know anyone that might be interested?  

[Tyson]

To get back on topic here   I find that people listen for different things in music.  Some want the dynamics and speed of a good solid state design, which gives them a more "live" sound, while others feel that realism comes from the "palpable" imaging that tubes can give.  I think they are both right, tubes and solid state both have strengths that are difficult to replicate in the other.

As for weaknesses, tubes generally are lacking in micro/macro dynamics and transient speed, while solid state tends to lack smoothness of tubes, and rarely matches that "palpable" imaging.  

But like anything, there are good designs, and bad designs, for both tube and solid state equipment.  The good designs keep the traditional strenghts and shore up the weaknesses to a very large degree.  So, a solid state amp can have both slam and smoothness, and a good tube amp can have good dynamics to go with the palpable imaging.

Of course a bad design can screw everything up, such as when solid state designers try to make solid state sound "like tubes".  You end up with a vieled and dark sounding solid state amp.

Then there are hybrid designes.  To me hybrids sound more like solid state designs than tubed (based on the AVA and counterpoint amps I've heard), but they do offer the benefit of tube swapping to change the "flavor" of the sound somewhat, to suite personal preference.

[Hantra]

solid state tends to lack smoothness of tubes, and rarely matches that "palpable" imaging

T:

Funny you should say that b/c I JUST had the opposite experience.  Perhaps my experience was not typical, and of course YMMV, but. . .  If you recall, I posted this a week or so ago:

My system will center the vocals, and make them very resolved, and nice. His will actually make the vocals more palpably real, as if there really is a guy there. Mine, I rarely get fooled. It is more like a voice really is there, and it is in the right place, but its dimensionality consists of itself in a sphere, whereas, his is like I hear at a live show. The dude is there.

Well. . .  I did quite a bit of playing since then.  I took my amps over to my friend's place, and replaced the 602 with them.  My problem certainly wasn't the amps.  they did VERY well against the 602.  So, what I did next was take his pre over to my place, et voila!  That was it!  I replace the Kora (which has vintage, minty NOS Siemens tubes) with the C41.  And all of a sudden, there really was a presence.  The person was in the room.  Whether it was one, or five people. . .  

The tubes didn't ever do that for me. . .  Perhaps it's all synergy. . Who knows. .  All I know is the SS preamp did more for me than anything I tried, and it brought that palpable realism to my system, and the weight that the Kora would not give.  So, I bought the C41.  My boy now uses a new C2200, and that thing IS tubes, and it is REAL nice.  It's all in the implementation. . .

B

[Tyson]

I would say that if a tubed setup doesn't give you palpability, it's a bad tube design, no matter what the "consensus" on the web is about the piece.  A good tube amp or preamp does the palpable thing well, a bad one does not.

And, obviously, a good SS amp or preamp can do it too, but it's a lot more difficult (at least it seems to be, based on the # of tube gear I've heard that can do it, and the # of SS gear I've heard that cannot).  I'm not saying that tubes always sound palpable and SS never does, just that statistically it happens with tubes more often (same is true with great bass and dynamics, it seems easier to have those as strengths w/SS designs).  I'm speaking generally here, not to a specific piece of gear. . .

Have you ever tried the Symphonic Line Erleuchtung preamp?  So far, it's done the palpable thing better than anything else I've heard.  The AVA T7 I have now just can't match it, but it does have other strengths.

[Hantra]

Well I'd love to find one that has the tube smoothness, the McIntosh weight, and better palpability than I have now.  That would be the bomb.  I haven't heard the Symphonic Line.  I did shootout my Kora with a CAT SL-1 Sig, and my Kora was better IMO, and even the guy who owned the CAT said it was d@mned close.  And that was BEFORE I got the Siemens. . .

B

[Jay S]

If you haven't already, try a single inline bybee at the input of your SN dac.  It will add to smoothness, dynamics, bass tightness, soundstage depth/layering and palpability.

[Hantra]

If you haven't already, try a single inline bybee at the input of your SN dac.  It will add to smoothness, dynamics, bass tightness, soundstage depth/layering and palpability.

So you put it on the jack where the digital signal comes in, or what?

[Jay S]

Yes, exactly.  Plug the male end of the bybee inline filter into the digital input of your SN, then plug the digital cable into the female end of the bybee digial filter.  The beauty is that you only need a single inline bybee, vs a pair when you want to purify an analog signal.

[Mad DOg]

I frequently see people posting with the comment that they've 'gotta get some tubes', whether in digital ouput, preamp, etc.

While I will agree that great tube equipment can be magical, tubes in and of themselves, are not necessarily great...

folks really need to find out what works for them. for some it's gonna be ss, for others it's gonna be tubes, for others it's gonna be a combo of the two and the only way to find out is to try it out...

i agree that not all tube gear is great...just like most of us can probably play basketball, no one can play basketball like MJ...just like most of us can drive a car, not many can drive like professional F-1 race car driver...it's the same for ss and tube gear...there's great stuff and then there's crap...