[cr_otmopo3ok]

I'm building B200 OBs so i need to augment it with 15" OB woofer (doing 40-200Hz duty). It will either be just a plain small baffle or a stuffed U baffle.
My room is 16'x11'x9' with speakers along a longer wall (1-2' off the back wall) so I'm wondering if i should buy 1 or 2 woofers per side? I'm a bit of a "fast+clean bass" head but i don't listen too loud, i just want doublebass to sound like it should. I'm SO tired of boomy bass with my room modes and TL sub. I have active XO + EQ so matching  SPL is not a problem.
Music preferences are mostly Jazz, Prog. Rock.
Here are my options:

Eminence Alpha-15A  $59
*Frequency range: 46-3,500 Hz
*Magnet weight: 25 oz.
*Fs: 41 Hz
*SPL: 97 dB 1W/1m
*Vas: 9.2 cu. ft.
*Qts: 1.26
*Xmax: 3.8 mm
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-407&ctab=2#Tabs

GOLDWOOD GW-1558 15" PRO WOOFER $45 (read 1 very good review)
* Frequency response: 31-2,500 Hz
* Magnet weight: 50 oz.
* Fs: 31 Hz
* SPL: 95.6 dB
* Vas: 14.19 cu. ft.
* Xmax: 3.9mm
* Qts: .63
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-384

PYLE PRO PPA15 $47
* Frequency response: 27-4,000 Hz
* Fs: 26.7 Hz
* SPL: 90.2 dB
* Vas: 11.36 cu. ft.
* Qts: .67
* Xmax: 6 mm
* Magnet weight: 70 oz.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=292-218

Eminence Delta-15LFA  $96
*Frequency range: 42-3,200 Hz
*Magnet weight: 56 oz.
*Fs: 41 Hz
*SPL: 96 dB 1W/1m
*Vas: 6.6 cu. ft.
*Qts: 0.58
*Xmax: 4.8 mm
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-417&ctab=2#Tabs

Knight-15  $50
Frequency Response:     35 to 4500hz
FS     35 hz
VAS    4.48
Qts    1.006
Xmax    4.5mm
Magnet weight: 50 oz.
http://www.musicsupplycenter.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=813%2D013

Warrior-15 $35
Frequency Response:     35 to 4600hz
FS     36 hz
VAS    8.29
SD    143.13
Qts    0.826
Xmax    4.5mm
Magnet weight: 50 oz.
http://www.musicsupplycenter.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=813%2D021

And of course:
Silver Iris Augie $150
Fs: 27.0 Hz
SPL: 88.7 dB 1w/1m
Qt:   0.92
Vas: 250.3 liters
Xmax: 7.15 mm
Magnet weight: 67ounces
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/drivers.htm

Can Qts be too high?
Visaton BGS 40 has Qts 0.4
http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zubehoer/musiker/bgs40_8.html
and people reported it sounding very good in OB while at the same time MJK really liked Alpha15A for their high Qts=1.26.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project07/Project07.html

I chose drivers with accordion surrounds since I believe low excursion sounds more accurate but will 3.8mm Xmas be enough? (Alpha15)

And finally the $300 question should i bother with all these cheap drivers of just get 2 Augies and a peace of mind? But then maybe at such price i should be looking at better drivers than Augie?

I wanted to save money with Alpha15 but if I need 2 of them to match the capability of 1 Augie then i'd rather get Augie ?!?

Suggestions?

Thank you.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Augie 

[zapper7]

From what I know, the Machs are more for subwoofer applications, like an IB, not necessarily a woofer going to 200hz, but may work.

[JoshK]

Ciare 18.00 ND W1 or Ciare 15.00 ND W1....assistance audio or other pro dealer have them.

[cr_otmopo3ok]

Thank you Bob I expected nothing less of you.
Thanks zapper i'm deleting them from the list...
Josh thanks i'm checking them out right now....Ouch ($200) they are even more expensive than Augies... but if you say they are good this may be my next step in upgrading..but first i wanna get my feet wet.


Any other suggestions guys?

[mcgsxr]

Mach5Audio Mach12 or Mach15.

I use the 12's, they work nicely with just one of the 2 voicecoils connected, thus doubling the stated QTS.

Solid build quality, affordable, not sure how they act above 150Hz, the highest I have crossed mine over to my b200, and I prefer around 90-100Hz in my room.

http://www.mach5audio.com/

[Bob in St. Louis]

Thank you Bob I expected nothing less of you.

  I'm getting a reputation....aren't I?

Bob

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Thank you Bob I expected nothing less of you.

  I'm getting a reputation....aren't I?

Bob

Yeah, Bob, but it may not be for what you think... aa aa

Dave

[JeffB]

I always here that you can't judge a speaker by its graph.
I also here that plots of bass below 200Hz are often not accurate.
I have found graphs for the Ciare speakers here

http://www.assistanceaudio.com/08_CIARE.html#neo

It seems natural to want a subwoofer to have a flat response between 20Hz and 200Hz.
One never see this on a graph.
However, the Ciare graphs look exceedingly poor to me.
Most of these speakers have a very sharp roll-off below 100Hz.
The 15.00NdW1 is relatively good compared to other Ciare graphs as its sharp roll-off starts at 70Hz.

Even the graphs of the 18s start a sharp decline at 100Hz.

The graph of the 12SW looks the best with sharp roll-off starting at 50Hz.
The 15.00 SW is maybe second best.

Are these graphs useful?  Am I misinterpreting something here?

The graph of this 2" driver looks better than the Ciare 15" subs.
http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/drivers/jxr6.html

[cr_otmopo3ok]

Bob it's not scary thinking your are earning a reputation,  it's scary when everyone else (Dave,...) start believing in that too. I've been reading different forums long enough to get to know the real gurus - people who are always willing to help others. Somewhat knowing your tastes I anticipated your response.
Dave's sense of humor took over him and he just couldn't let such a chance pass him by.

Thanks everyone for your input,
Ciares seem fishy and even more expensive than Augie. Augies to me right now seem like perfect OB drivers so if I were to splurge $300 i'd get them, anything more expensive is not necessary.
However the main point of this post is to get my feet wet with OB bass so i highly desire to get some *excellent* drivers in $50 range.
I'm sure if i really like what i hear i'll buy Augies in couple of months and use the less expensive drivers to make a ripole sub, so they won't go to waste.
However Knights and Warriors seem to 'scream' BAD QUALITY (glue on 50% of drivers' surrounds) and most specs lie.
Right now it seems i have 3 major contenders based on different recommendations i read:

GOLDWOOD GW-1558 $45 Qts:0.67
Pyle PPA15               $47 Qts:0.67
Eminence Alpha-15A   $59 Qts:1.26

I always felt that Alphas had a weak motor and weak surround and Dick Olsher confirmed my suspision when he said that Q factor was just too high -> less control, all in a race for lower extension. I don't want that. So I think i'm ruling out Alphas due to their 'too high' Qts and weak damping. He also mentioned that Q factor should be closer to 0.6 (he even damped Augies with 25Oohm resistor ).
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0107/diy_loudspeaker_project.htm

I've seen PPA15 being used for U,H dipole, ripole sub (<80Hz) duty by several people over the years on different boards but i just have a 'gut feeling' they ain't good in midbass region. (from someone's comment of their rising, bumpy response higher).Plus i just feel a driver with cheesy picture on the front can't sound good up higher.

Brad convinced me from his 'extreme' testing that Goldwoods can take a beating and sound great (and he is hard to please he says) :
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=634&highlight=poor+mans+augie
So at least I'm not worried about Xmax there. I don't know anything else about these drivers (manufacturer doesn't even provide freq. plot) but for some reason i'm still drawn to them. I've heard about the other 2 drivers but i learned about Goldwoods just today and yet after Brad's review i feel they deserve a chance. I' falling for them right now the most.
PS: Both PPA15 and 1558 have Qts:0.67 just like Dick Olsher recommended.

What do you think?

[cr_otmopo3ok]

BTW i've read that Eminence posts it's Xmas peak values so Alphas 3.8mm is in fact 7.2mm total.
I suspect that PPA15's 6mm is total while i'm not sure about Goldwood's 3.9mm.(i hope it's only one way) But from the review it seems that's more than enough for them.

PS: interesting read where Darrel himself compares Alphas to Augies.
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=403&highlight=alpha

Still puzzled on the selection... 

[JohninCR]

CR,

OB woofer selection has to start with performance goals and how much cab you can live with.  Linkwitz's DipoleSPLmax spreadsheet can tell you your limits at whatever bottom frequency you desire.  For bottom end performance the primary consideration is how much air you can move.  This makes the Augie worth 2 of the other drivers, due to double the Xmax.  I don't use very high Q drivers like the Alpha because I use EQ.   If you're going for a minimalist approach without EQ, or without flattening response via a mechanical means like with a ripole, then a high Q might be what you want.

So much of the Goldwood stuff is pure junk, along with alot of the Pyle stuff.  While these drivers might be exceptions, I'd have a hard time trusting either of them.  In that price range, I'd prefer to take the sloppy gluing risk of the Knight, and at least get the wide open cast frame Knight 15".  If price is less of an object and/or you are limited to small form and only 1 driver per side, then I'd go with the Augies.  Though they take more power, they also give you lower natural extension.

[cr_otmopo3ok]

Thanks John,
I was waiting for a response from you.
My system is active PC XO + EQ so i can 'perfect' any ugly duckling.
If you say they are junk your word alone is enough for me.
I guess there is no denying it, i have to go with Augies!

Ohh man this is SO dangerous if I go to THAT web site I might 'accidentally' order SI Coax to try them too. And i JUST got my B200 a week ago.
Little OT:
I'm afraid of the harsh sounding crossover point between 15" and horn tweeter in SI coax. B200 has better mid response.

BTW John how are our experimentation with Ringed baffle that you mounted directly to B200 (stack of rings equivalent of 18" baffle)?
How does it sound? Would you go back to regular baffle?
I'm very interested in the design i might do that with a matching Ringed Augie underneath it (both magnet mounted of course).


If it doesn't sound too good then i might do do something similar to your other baffle only 40" tall:





Thanks for all your help, experimentation and for sharing it with us!

[JohninCR]

CR,

I didn't say those drivers were junk, but those companies put their name on a lot of stuff that is.

The rings have a serious flaw, which is equal "D" all around the baffle which maximizes the dipole ripples.

The pretty baffle is an easy build, but having your main driver so close to the floor can be problematic, especially if you have a reflective floor.

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Here's a note that may be of interest. Darrel Hawthorne is planning on having the new Sterling Silver Iris 15 OB Coaxial and the Sterling Silver Iris 15 Augie out in a few months. I can't go into a lot of detail at this point, but I can say that the Sterling Silver Augie is a heavier driver than the standard Augie. It has a substantially lower Qt, a bigger magnet and much more X-max. Same great build quality. Is that enough to start a few of you drooling?

Dave  

[cr_otmopo3ok]

A  B  S  O  L  U  T  E  L  Y


Oh Dave you made my day

[opnly bafld]

Here's a note that may be of interest. Darrel Hawthorne is planning on having the new Sterling Silver Iris 15 OB Coaxial and the Sterling Silver Iris 15 Augie out in a few months. I can't go into a lot of detail at this point, but I can say that the Sterling Silver Augie is a heavier driver than the standard Augie. It has a substantially lower Qt, a bigger magnet and much more X-max. Same great build quality. Is that enough to start a few of you drooling?

Dave  

Not drooling yet, waiting for the 10" Augies, now THAT has me

impatiently,
Lin

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Here's a note that may be of interest. Darrel Hawthorne is planning on having the new Sterling Silver Iris 15 OB Coaxial and the Sterling Silver Iris 15 Augie out in a few months. I can't go into a lot of detail at this point, but I can say that the Sterling Silver Augie is a heavier driver than the standard Augie. It has a substantially lower Qt, a bigger magnet and much more X-max. Same great build quality. Is that enough to start a few of you drooling?

Dave  

Not drooling yet, waiting for the 10" Augies, now THAT has me

impatiently,
Lin

Those are getting real close. I have the protoype drivers here now, and my first attempt at an XO for them. The baffles are due via UPS today. Will start testing shortly.

Dave

[cr_otmopo3ok]

Dave if you can't tell, don't say anything but i was wondering, 
Will the Sterlings be complementary to the current driver line up (for a premium price) or will they replace the current SIs ?
Too much Xmax is not always great...it would seem like a driver is turning into one of the usual long throw designs...
I'm not saying anything bad at all, it's just that something about accordion surround and low excursion that sound right, quick and effortless.
But if it's designed specifically for OB espesially by Darrel than it's gotta be good.
Plus now i remember that i heard Darrel talking that Sterling is the BEST driver he's ever heard (now i realize what sterling he was talking about)
Few months is SO far aways it seems... what to listen for now?


Another question:
I know all the negative sides of 10"SI coax and that it's designed for smaller rooms.
But even if i can accommodate 15" coax easily is there a additional advantage to buying 10" coax that would make me buy it over 15" like better imaging due to smaller wave launch cone? Better dynamics?
I mean if they are complemented by Augie on the bottom then the negative side of 10" (lower extension) goes away in an instant, then maybe 10" has other advantages?

[Bob in St. Louis]

I can't go into a lot of detail at this point

Maybe YOU can't........    aa

Bob