[jrebman]

This was originally brought to my attention by Bill at VPI when I was discussing upgrades for my HW-19.  He said that if you completely remove the springs and don't use any suspension at all -- i.e. sorbathane pucks -- and sit the plinth on top of 3 equal-length pieces of foam cut from a kid's swim "noodle", that the results are incredible.

Yes, it's a variation on the DIY SAMA thing, but I was wondering if anybody had actually tried the noodle suspension tweak?

Bill said to google it, but I came up pretty much empty on that so I'm asking here.

-- Jim

[jpv]

I havn't heard of that one. Thanks for the idea. I did do a DIY sama and the results are incredible.
What upgrades did you discuss?

[jrebman]

Well, I had asked Bill at VPI about upgrading the platter and suspension and I was originally going to go for the Aries platter, the cone feet, and the sorbathane pucks, but when I told him that I had a Technics EPA-100 arm he suggested that the Aries platter would require a whole new arm board and mount because it was too thick.  Then I asked about the SAMA and that's when he told me that with the Scout platter and bearing and the noodle suspension that I would get better results than with the SAMA and sorbathane pucks or the stock suspension.

So, I figure a 3" or 4" maple slab, keeping the stock adjustable feet, going with the noodle suspension, and with the Scout platter/bearing upgrade, I'm going to be doing pretty well.

P.S. -- for those who don't know, the HW-19 really benefits from either a PLC or the much more expensive SDS speed control -- big difference.  The PLC is no longer made, but you can still see them on agon for about $200, and it's well worthit, IMO.

I got my new platter and bearing a few days ago, now I guess it's out to toy's 'r' us for a noodle .

-- Jim

[jpv]

I have the PLC for my HW-19 Jr. What platter are you upgrading from? Let us know your impressions of the new platter. I was thinking of doing the same upgrade to mine. I would build a sand box to put your table on. They are very good at keeping any vibrations from getting thru. I think you will hear a much quieter background, along with low level detail that will amaze you. 
JPV

[gooberdude]

Sounds exactly like a Mapleshade free tweak, i think it is actually.

remove the factory suspension then couple the 'table to a suspended tonewood plinth.

My TT is rigid from the start, but has the full meal deal now:  4" mapleshade air dried board suspended with isoblocks.   the effect is much more thorough than i had hoped for.   $ well spent, even if my TT looks like a science experiment now.

[jrebman]

I wouldn't be too quick to credit Mapleshade as there was no mention in the original tweak of using a wood board -- it was simply a matter of removing the original suspension -- the idea being to isolate the plinth from the chassis with the rigidly mounted motor and it's associated vibration, something people have been doing since the beginning of turntable time, when appropriate (obviously can't be done with idler wheel drive, for example.

I'm also not convinced that there is any difference between air and kiln dried wood -- both kinds of boards are glued up to form the large sizes and glue has much more effect than does the moisture content, which btw, will eventually saturate to the point of average humidity in your area.  I figure if kiln-dried wood is good enough for the German builder who built my friend's $300,000 cello, then it's good enough for me.  for the record, I have both air and kiln-dried maple and the only thing that seems to make any real audible difference is the thickness -- yes, 4 inches sounds much better than 2", and 3" is much better than 2" though not quite what 4" is.  I'd also bet dollars to donuts that lacquer is more responsible for the tone as opposed to polyurethane.

As always YMMV.

JPV,

my table started out as a mk II, which means that it has a steel plate bonded to the underside of the plinth, as well as a thicker platter than the Jr.

The Scout platter and inverted bearing are still in the box VPI shipped it in, and I first have to clear some other projects and old gear out of here before I even have a place in my work area to set it down to work on.  As soon as people buy some of my stuff and I finish my phono stage and squeezebox PSU, then I can think about upgrading the table.

-- Jim

Sounds exactly like a Mapleshade free tweak, i think it is actually.

remove the factory suspension then couple the 'table to a suspended tonewood plinth.

My TT is rigid from the start, but has the full meal deal now:  4" mapleshade air dried board suspended with isoblocks.   the effect is much more thorough than i had hoped for.   $ well spent, even if my TT looks like a science experiment now.

[gooberdude]

I'd agree that the lacquer does have something to it as well.    i think i also read that in a MS catalog!

the air dried vs kiln dried debate, when there is one, will have a tough time getting past use with anything other than a turntable.   Under my rigid TT, kiln dried sounds much difft.   I haven't A-B tested the air vs kiln under my amp or preamp, but doubt it makes that much of a difference other gear...rigid tt's are just so susceptible to vibrations i guess.

under my TT, it'll always be air dried.   If anyone would like CD's from LP's of air dried or kiln dried, let me know.   the difference is SO severe the cd's should be a cool test.

crazy how the thickness changes the effect.  i have 2", 3" & 4".   when i hit the Lotto it'll all be 4".

[Bill Epstein]

It's been a long time since I bought kids toys. Is this something I can buy at any toy store? Brand name?

A thought about air-dried vs. kiln dried. I wonder if the fact that Pierre's wood comes from the Amish and therefore has to be Sugar (Hard)  Maple, and possibly 'Old Growth',  has a lot to do with favorable opinion.  With so much imported wood being used in the U.S., I imagine that many cutting boards, in addition to being kiln-dried, are woods that are more Maple-like than Maple.

Certainly drying affects the cells of the wood, whether done in an oven or outdoors,  but first you have to have the right cells.

[TheChairGuy]

Bill,

Seasonal sections are set from about February to July in most chain stores....the 'noodle' can probably be found in any Drug (probably Mass merchant, too, but you have to search a bit harder for it as they are larger stores) chain store from now until July 4 (or until they run out). 

I'm almost sure there is a brand name out there on them as I've seen them, but I can't remember them.  There's a lot of generic ones under the names of Water Noodle, Swim Noodle, too.

Just make your way to the 'beach/seasonal' area - the place where they sell flip-flops, umbrella's, chairs (that's how I know), towels, beach balls, etc.  Even if you don't live near beach or lakes, most stores have at least a small seasonal section.

[jrebman]

So, TCG, are you going to try this next time you dust off your HW-19?  Just curious.  Also, have you tried a PLC or SDS with your HW-19?  That may level the field a bit in comparison to the speed control you get with the sl-1200 or your JVC.  Note, I'm not saying they will be equal, but speed control on the HW-19 makes a pretty big difference.

-- Jim

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Jim,

No, I've not invested the $1K for the SDS or $400 for SAMA yet.  I like what I have now and I hope not to have the urge anytime soon.

But, you're right, it might narrow the gap or force me to concede the VPI is better if I do...at considerably higher cost.  But, better nonetheless 

I love swapping our cartridges in minutes and semi-auto function, too, with the JVC....most of my playing is done during day while I work and if I get tied up on the phone or 'puter for a task, it's nice to not have my needle bumping around for any long than it needs to 

John

[jrebman]

John,

I was just thinking that the noodle thing might be a bit easier to manage than the veggie cans with the lead shot or whatever you have in them these days.  You can also pick up a PLC for $250 or so on agon from time to time.  But, I do understand the appeal of semi-automatics .  Somewhere I have a technics 1300, which I know is nothing like the 1200, but I may just pull it out of storage and see what it can do, or what tweaks it may be open to.

I bought my hw-19 off agon, but from a local, so was able to go and give it a try before buying it, and I was really amazed at the difference the PLC, when properly dialed-in, made.

-- Jim

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Jim,

You might wanna' dust off that Technics 1300...here's a guy-in-the-know over at another forum that has 6 tables, all more expensive than his Technics, and likes the Technics best.  He hasn't done any of the suggested mods yet to make it really sing like Pavarotti, and mated it to his Shelter 501 

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8538

Yeah, mine is sitting on the shot-filled, veggie cans...they work (a look a smidge better than a noodle - just a smidge probably )

[TheChairGuy]

For $1.99 at Long's, I bought a dang purdy blue noodle today. They'll be gone by July at the Drug/Supermarket/Mass chains folks - get them before the only choice of color left is icky pink 

Now, all I need is a working tonearm (the home-brew Rega 250 re-wire from previous owner is causing grounding and other issues now)

[jrebman]

John,

Looks like I better get out and do some noodle shopping soon.

Wonder what to cut it with?  Perhaps a heated Henckels carving knife

-- Jim

[TheChairGuy]

I'm thinking a small/sharp hacksaw.  A ginsu would probably work, too 

[TheChairGuy]

I am listening to the JVC with 4 roughly similarly sized 'noodle' cylinders under it now....freshly cut 4" tall sections with a ginsu table knife (small serrated edge make a nice blade sometimes).

It's horrid - how can VPI recommend this as an isolation aid?  A simple tap on my table yields a generous 'thump' to my speakers. That's never helpful 

The music is so 'confused' and poor now it's sad 

With the veggie cans, with the small squishy LAT puds on top of them, I have to really rap the table to get a thump from the speakers.

I wouldn't know why it would perform any different with a VPI HW-19 plinth.

As an isolation aid, I'd rate the noodle a '0'.  The feet that came on the JVC are probably more effective at isolation.

I bought four of those spikey brass feet from Parts Express (under $20 for 4 substantial and height adjustable ones) a while back...haven't tried those atop the veggie cans (filled with 5-6 lbs of lead shot each).  I like my puds...they've uniformly worked better than almost any other isolation aid I've come up with in 5 years. I don't know what they are made from, but they are black, squishy, and work 

[TheChairGuy]

Okay, I put the (electrical taped) and shot filled veggie cans back in place.....only this time I broke out Part #240-721 from Parts Express and placed it atop the veggie cans (witha few business cards as buffer from the shot inside). http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=240-721&CFID=13392489&CFTOKEN=22820338

The results seem mixed.  The sound is a bit less damped, and more striking....but more vibrations seem to reach the speakers when I thump the table as with the puds. It's less damped sounding, in many ways this is good, but I can't tell overall if it's better.  My gut tells me it's worse - and that it only sounds different and that in itself is appealing. 

The only thing this all points to is that good isolation is essential to enjoying vinyl fully 

I'll leave it for a spell and see it it's an improvement or downgrade. It's been on for about 10 minutes and I'm thinking it's more of a downgrade.

It sure looks purdier, tho, now 

UPDATE: I replaced the points with the puds again.  At least in this set-up, the puds rule supreme. It's a far better, less jumbled sonic presentation now.  It again strikes me profoundly how important isolation from outside elements is, and there are a variety of ways to drain the energy already stored in the turntable itself that need to be explored further  aa

I'm not sure which is more important...isolating outside elements from reaching the TT body....or finding a way to drain the energy from the TT body 

[jrebman]

John,

In your setup is the noodle making direct contact with the underside of the plinth, or the bottom of the base?  That might account for a difference, don't know.

It's not that I doubt what you're saying, just wonder if it's an apples to apples comparison.

I have another idea I'm going to try too -- 3 mapleshade ultimate triple points set upside down so that the triple-pointed side is resting on a block of wood that's the correct thickness to bring the whole arrangement to the correct height, then the single point of the brass pointed up and making contact with the bottom metal plate of the plinth.  May even work better with the wood in contact with the plinth, or maybe wood on both sides, but all that experimenting will have to wait until I get this phono stage done and the platter and bearing changed over.

-- Jim

[TheChairGuy]

The JVC ain't a modular deal....the top plinth comes for the ride with the (plastic) bottom. The 4" noodle is in direct contact with the bottom of the deck.....underneath the noodle is a 1.5" thick piece of green polished marble slab.

It shouldn't matter if it's in contact with base plinth (as with the VPI HW-19 DIY SAMA suggested).  The noodle either or both does nothing to drain off energy within the deck or isolates the outside world from the deck.  It would perform similarly on any deck....that is, awful (blech ).

Try the Maplepoints - ya' never know if it's beneficial.  But, the noodle is best left for the pool and kiddies 

Don't worry about doubting me...I do it all the time