Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches

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aramesh

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Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« on: 22 Mar 2007, 06:39 pm »
Sorry if this has been already discussed but how about some of you experienced guys put a list out for speakers that matches well with what Pre/Amp/Integrated or what doesn't.
This may really help us newbies.
We can start with Monitors and then Floorstanding..etc.
Thanks in advance

TONEPUB

Re: Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« Reply #1 on: 23 Mar 2007, 05:00 am »
You know that's almost an insurmountable task, not knowing what your room
is like, or your taste in music and sound.  One person might really like a particular
combination while another might hate it.

This is really the part of the audio experience that you need to experience
and get a feel for what you like...

Hard to decide for someone else.

The most harmless, works in every situation speaker I know of:
The Vandersteen 2 if you have a fair amount of room, the ACI
Sapphire XL if you want a smaller speaker.  Both are fantastic
and about 1500 new a pair.  They both work with just about any
amplifier too...


aramesh

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Re: Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« Reply #2 on: 27 Mar 2007, 05:32 pm »
What I was trying to get at was if there were "dreaded" combinations, a newbie should keep away from. Or as the case may be a beautiful synergy that one should look for.
There are opportunities/situations to get one gear at a time and so for a good match, if someone can guide, that would make newbies life more enjoyable and also same mistakes of un-matched gears can be avoided or the audio "nirvana"  that eludes most of us, could be experienced.

JLM

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Re: Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« Reply #3 on: 21 May 2007, 11:00 pm »
A few dreaded combinations (IMO):

Most tube amps with speakers that go below 40 Hz (unless you like flabby bass).

Most tube amps with speaker with low impedances (average of 4 ohms or dips below 2 ohms)

Underpowered amps for a given speaker efficiency (great way to fry a tweeter).

nextlevelmp

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Re: Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« Reply #4 on: 13 Jun 2007, 01:41 am »
Yeah, good topic. I am also looking for a bit of advice. If anyone cares to take a shot at this... Here goes.

I am looking for a speaker setup to do 5.1 and I am not sure If I want to go towers again or big bookshelfs.

I watch alot of Hd dvds and blu ray, I play tons of games and even though I like music, it would really be more of a Hometheater setup than anything else.

Right now, I have a velodyne 15" sub(15htz)1650rms(3000peak), the 2 dvd players, my game systems and I am buying an earthquake cinenova grande 5 but not too sure on what type of processor yet. I want to get something with hdmi for the audio benefits but since I'm on a budget, I don't know what types of processors I can afford. I like the towers I have now just fine but I sold them to my little brother in hopes I could find something of an upgrade I could also afford. My biggest concern is having something that performs well when considering the power that the amp has and I just love that clean sound. I would hate to hurt the amp or speakers.  If possible, can someone shed light on the major difference(s) between ribbons and regular speakers?

My music preference is alternative and rock with the occasional classical music. Again, its really more for Home theater purposes but I figured more info helps someone make suggestions.

My price budget for the 2 fronts, 2 rears and center speaker is about 6k but I would be more than happy to spend less. I  was originally looking into sonus faber as I get a hefty discount at work(big box store) and I was considering B and M but I am more concerned with function rather than form. I love the sonus faber because years ago, I heard them at tweeter and I liked them. It was the piano series. Someone suggested I check this site out and even though the speakers look beautiful, I just dont know whats affordable to me as I dont know pricing for these speakers and I didnt want to pester someone for an entire list of pricing. 

My current towers are 4 polk audio Rt 2000 speakers.  300 peak, 2 small powered subs(more like glorified midranges) a midrange and tweet.  They have served me well but I want something that makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.  I'm looking for the best possible sound for my money with design a distant second. My wife may not like them but what's the difference? she hates my towers now!   :icon_lol:

Thanks guys/gals. 

JLM

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Re: Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« Reply #5 on: 14 Jun 2007, 02:49 am »
Welcome nextlevelmp,

As you stated, it seems that you're after sound effects more than music.  Audio (and therefore Audio Circle) is more about accurate reproduction of music.  So you may be barking up the wrong tree. 

I might suggest you look towards Klipsch brand speakers.  They typically are very efficient (wouldn't need more than 20 watts per channel to reach rock concert levels, especially with 5 channels).  Klipsch even has their own website and consumer forum (although much of it is devoted to the large/vintage speakers that they still sell).  Prices range up to roughly $1000/tower speaker and they sell families of speakers so you could go all standmounts or mix towers with standmounts.

Years ago I saw my 4 pound cat take a flying leap at my large standmount (10" x 10" x 20") on a short (12') stand and knocked it over (breaking a binding post in the process).  By the time you buy good stands you can typically move from standmounts to floorstanders and pick up more bass at the same time.

nextlevelmp

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Re: Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« Reply #6 on: 14 Jun 2007, 04:18 am »
Thanks for the suggestion.  I sell a few of the klipsch reference series towers at work and they are priced at 400 and 600 ea depending on which size tower you go with. I was actually testing them today. I'm going to check out their site and see what else I can dig up. I was also looking at some higher end definitive technologies speakers as well. Sound and vision, home theater magazine and a few other sites seem to like them as well. I get a decent price on them as well. In the past 2 days, I have gathered more research and I'm still trying to narrow my list down to a few speaker companies and models.  So far, I have as follows...

Sonus faber(grand piano series) towers
Definitive technologies 7001 towers
Martin logan electro static panels but not sure what size yet
B and M as a company in general but not sure on speaker yet

Out of whats here, I am leaning more toward definitive technologies towers because my cost is a bargain and I like the step down from them that I have on display but the larger towers have bigger subs that drop much lower.  Price each spkr is retail 1800.00 ea? and I save a ton on them from that price.  Thanks again for the recommendation. I appreciate any info someone can take the time to give.  :thumb: :D

JLM

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Re: Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« Reply #7 on: 14 Jun 2007, 09:56 am »
nextlevelmp,

Most here wouldn't shop by specifications, but rather by what sounds good.  Most your source material preferences are "artificial".  In other words, they are only heard via someone else's playback system, meaning that all you can do is compare their system to whatever you're listening through, so there can be no standard for sound quality.  Live, unamplified music (like classical, some jazz/folk, etc.) is the gold standard.  Once you become familar with how it really sounds you can begin the audiophile quest for sound quality.

Note that deep, boomy bass and attention getting zingy highs can be initially impressive to the unedcated ear, but will cause listener fatigue (irritation, antsiness) and soon a loss of interest in audio only.  Marketing hype has deluded most into believing that they need 20 - 20,000 Hz response at 120 dB.  This goal translates into big, complicated, and expensive solutions that nearly always have compromises in providing basic lifelike sound quality.  This is seen in elaborate crossovers, large arrays of (cheap) drivers, and various quality levels of cabinet construction.  So consumers chase this ideal and are never satisfied.  (What an ideal scheme to sell and sell and sell.)

OTOH the audiophile seeks detail, tonal accuracy, and proper imaging/soundscape.  The essence of 2 channel sound is, with the right recording and playback system, to be able to recreate a sonic hologram of the performance.  Each instrument and vocalist is in the correct location (left/right, front/back, and up/down) and of the right size.  This IME is the entry point for audiophilia.  Coherency is more important than extending frequency response to the limits of human hearing (and beyond) or creating "brown sound".

So most audiophile speaker systems have no subwoofer and in fact are often just two-way designs.  Far better for the audiphile to have fewer high quality components than a room full of cheap parts used with an off the shelf design.  If you look back 10 years or more at manufacturer advertisments you'll see the same reoccuring themes, touting one concept or another.  The challenge for these big box vendors is not quality, innovative design, but to pick what buzz will sell equipment.  For instance, typical $500 speakers use $25 worth of driver/crossover components in a cabinet that has more invested in veneers than the cabinet itself.  Normal retail and distribution markups are around 75%.  Here at AC most of the vendors sell direct and much of it is hand built in the U.S.  You can't make a silk purse from a pig's ear.

nextlevelmp

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Re: Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« Reply #8 on: 18 Jun 2007, 02:32 am »
nextlevelmp,

Most here wouldn't shop by specifications, but rather by what sounds good.  Most your source material preferences are "artificial".  In other words, they are only heard via someone else's playback system, meaning that all you can do is compare their system to whatever you're listening through, so there can be no standard for sound quality.  Live, unamplified music (like classical, some jazz/folk, etc.) is the gold standard.  Once you become familar with how it really sounds you can begin the audiophile quest for sound quality.

Note that deep, boomy bass and attention getting zingy highs can be initially impressive to the unedcated ear, but will cause listener fatigue (irritation, antsiness) and soon a loss of interest in audio only.  Marketing hype has deluded most into believing that they need 20 - 20,000 Hz response at 120 dB.  This goal translates into big, complicated, and expensive solutions that nearly always have compromises in providing basic lifelike sound quality.  This is seen in elaborate crossovers, large arrays of (cheap) drivers, and various quality levels of cabinet construction.  So consumers chase this ideal and are never satisfied.  (What an ideal scheme to sell and sell and sell.)

OTOH the audiophile seeks detail, tonal accuracy, and proper imaging/soundscape.  The essence of 2 channel sound is, with the right recording and playback system, to be able to recreate a sonic hologram of the performance.  Each instrument and vocalist is in the correct location (left/right, front/back, and up/down) and of the right size.  This IME is the entry point for audiophilia.  Coherency is more important than extending frequency response to the limits of human hearing (and beyond) or creating "brown sound".

So most audiophile speaker systems have no subwoofer and in fact are often just two-way designs.  Far better for the audiphile to have fewer high quality components than a room full of cheap parts used with an off the shelf design.  If you look back 10 years or more at manufacturer advertisments you'll see the same reoccuring themes, touting one concept or another.  The challenge for these big box vendors is not quality, innovative design, but to pick what buzz will sell equipment.  For instance, typical $500 speakers use $25 worth of driver/crossover components in a cabinet that has more invested in veneers than the cabinet itself.  Normal retail and distribution markups are around 75%.  Here at AC most of the vendors sell direct and much of it is hand built in the U.S.  You can't make a silk purse from a pig's ear.
Wow. It just goes to show ya, there are so many things you can learn every day. I have been strugling with this for some time now. I was trying to find something that has a nice mid and high while providing plenty of power to fill up a large room. I hate boomy bass, but I also believe that a decent sub can provide the dramatic impact while watching theater material but when I listen to music, I just use the 3 way speakers I have now and use them in stereo only. I was wondering though.... when you listen to a speaker and it sounds great for music purposes.. does that mean it will also sound good for home theater? Is that even a question that can be answered?  Its clear you know more about what tonal balance should sound like when looking for speakers to produce music so please forgive my ignorance when asking questions that may seem dumb. I really appreciate your input as well as others who have offered suggestions. Thanks guys! :D I guess the best thing for me to do is just try to find a high end audio place around my area and see what music (classical and the like) should sound like from a person who knows more on the matter. I hate boomy bass, ear killing high treble sound coming from a speaker. I prefer something of a warmer sound overall. Clean vocals are huge to me but a nice and even stream throughout the sound range is of course what I would like to have but finding material to test speakers such as musical discs seem to be the best way to test them I assume? How would you go find speakers if you had a large room and you were going to use them for every audio purpose possible? How would you personally judge them in a step by step order (specs aside)? thanks.  :thumb:

JLM

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Re: Speakers - Pre/Amp Matches
« Reply #9 on: 18 Jun 2007, 10:53 am »
nextlevelmp,

“Nice mid and high” is subjective, so you’ll have to determine for yourself just what that means to you.

Filling a large room is a factor of both speaker efficiency and wattage rating of the amp.  It’s “easier” to get loud with speaker efficiency, but more efficient speakers typically have colorations.

With the right subwoofer you should only need two-way speakers.  In fact two-way standmounts should work just fine with a sub, even in a big room.  Subs should be adjusted just below the level that they draw attention to themselves.  Their job is to provide a foundation for sound (and like most foundations should stay “underground” and unseen/heard).

HT sound seems to track more closely with studio sound (more detailed and analytical).  An analogy to describe what this means could be comparing pencil sketches (the detailed/analytical sound) versus an oil painting (good tonality and imaging that also has the outlines, but aren’t as emphasized).  Yes, good audio speakers should also be good for any kind of listening.

For dramatic impact (highly dynamic) sound, look for efficient speakers.

The boomy bass and piercing highs can be initially impressive (long enough to make the big box sale), but quickly lead to listener fatigue.

You can try to find a high-end audio shop, but the first step is to get familiar with live/unamplified music, then find a similar good quality recording, and finally do in-home listening.  I’d try to hook up with a local audio club.  Check out the groups here at AC to see if any are close by.  When auditioning speakers use the same recordings (that you are familiar with and represent the live/unamplified genres you like).  Try to keep the room size and the rest of the system as consistent as possible. Visit when you can have the room/shop to yourself to get the best sales help and avoid competing sound from others.  Don’t waste your time/ears on those boomy/zingy speakers.  Limit yourself to only 3 or 4 serious contending speakers per day as the ear/brain gets easily overwhelmed.  Give yourself plenty of time between auditioning days to mull over what you’ve heard. 

Half the fun of audio is in the hunt.  It took me a year to shop speakers when I first got serious.  Note that much of the most important information from “professional” reviews is what isn’t stated.  It takes a great deal of reading between the lines and linking your impressions to theirs to get a handle on how you might like a particular piece.