Upgrading again, need advise?

chgolatin2 · « **on:** 21 Mar 2007, 04:00 pm »

Ok here I go again, in the quest for pure audio enjoyment I have decided to do an upgrade only on my speakers. I was thinking about just adding a sub to my Von Schweikert Audio VR2's or just maybe upgrading to the VR4 Jr/s but the price tag on the Jr.s have me a bit concern so I decided to do some research and I came across the Anthonoy Gallo Ref 3.1 and the Onix Mini Strata found on av123.com. My budget is 2k up to 4k I already spent $3k on the Vr2's. My equipment consist of Jolida 1000RC and JD 100, both heavily upgraded, JD with a level 2 mod and the upgraded tubes on the 1000RC.

Looking for a fuller sounding range speaker even though I am somewhat happy with the VSA line I feel like something is missing dunno

I enjoy Jazz, Latin, R&B and other types of music. For some reason, I feel the urge to try the Onix Mini Strata for just under 2k anyway, going to audition some other's out there Sonus Faber and the Gallo's today. Wow, audiophile is like an addiction in a good way, lol!

Looking forward to hearing from those that have owned or own the Gallo's ref and the Mini Strata and any other opinions as well.

Thanks to all in advance!

carusoracer · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Mar 2007, 04:54 pm »

Great post above.

I have heard the VS models you have mentioned in the same room at the same time with multiple Amps. I do believe that the smaller VR share a similar sound with the jrs. Yet the rear ambient driver level is very important as is shot loading to the Bass cabinets. All of which you can tailor to your room acoustics.

The Gallo Ref 3.1's I have not heard but I have the Ref 3's. They are not the same type of speakers but are both floor standing 3 ways. Good to know your going to hear the Gallo's. OTH, you can get a good flavor for the sound but w/o the Sub Amplifier I do not believe that you will know what level they truly perform. It all depends on the size of your room. Your listening habits are very similar to mine and the CDT tweeter is exceptionalas is the 10" sealed woofer with the 2nd voicecoil activated.

Go with what you like. YMMV

chgolatin2 · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Mar 2007, 04:59 pm »

Great info tvad I have to get some reading done and learn a bit more about my needs, under my judgement I have a great sounding system however the more I listen to my sound the more I feel like their is is "something" missing. My tube integrated amp is rated at wpc so I know I wont be having any problems driving any speakers, unless I do monoblocks but thats just another topic. Thanks for the info on the book, I am about to purchase it online~

Any other advise??

AB · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Mar 2007, 06:00 pm »

"the more I listen to my sound the more I feel like there is "something" missing."

Ah therein lies the rub...

Or, for the pedants;

ay, there 's the rub:

Can you try to be more specific about what you feel is missing? Knowing this the folks here might be able to save you a great deal of trial and error.
Though trail and error is interesting, it can be frustrating and, in the process, very expensive.

ricmon · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Mar 2007, 06:46 pm »

My 2 cents on speakers are from my own experience. I tried the Gallos but settled on a pair of Lipinski L-707's (they do require a subwoofer for full range sound) . These speaker where runner up for product of the year and only exceed your budget by a few hundred bucks. IMOH they should go on your list of speakers to audition (they are great speaker for the price).

robert1325 · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Mar 2007, 06:57 pm »

I've been looking for speakers that are pure musical enjoyment , unfortunatly my budget does not allow all those fancy makes like Von schweikert .... my first speakers where B&'W dm603s3's, nice warm sounding speakers, but they just lacked subtlelty and where very boomy.... Then I got some chinese monitors ( wich can compare to monitors costing around 3K) wich where very very good. But still I missed some emotion and fun in the music. It all sounded too Hi-Fi and not enough music....

I came across hawthorne silver Iris OB's, these are very simple 15 inch Coax drivers with a fun musical full/warm sound ... very good for all kinds of music ! You can mount them on a 22mm thick MDF board of 75cm by 50 cm.These are very easy to match with your amps , you can even drive them with 2 watts if you want! These have all the resolution and detail I ever wanted but also "make music" you feel very close to the music.

Just have a look at the hawthorne forum, they are not expensive and are great for everything including Home theater

This sounds like a promotion but it isn't

Robert

Ps; sorry for my grammatics or spelling, I'm dutch

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forum/
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/ha_si_part1_e.html

fajimr · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Mar 2007, 08:05 pm »

Quote from: robert1325 on 21 Mar 2007, 06:57 pm

Ps; sorry for my grammatics or spelling, I'm dutch

I know there's an austin power's joke in there somewhere

disclaimer: not making fun of robert1325, I spent a year in the NL and the Dutch speak better English than many Americans

ctviggen · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Mar 2007, 08:08 pm »

That's what I was going to say -- If he thinks his English is bad, he shouldn't, as our Dutch is terrible.

bluewax · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 01:02 am »

At market rates on the 'Gon, look into the AZ Adagios... They mate very, very well with valves, and are surprisingly adept at a spectrum of music genres. The mappa burl finish is beautiful. Cheers, bw

chgolatin2 · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 06:51 am »

Let me put it this way, when I raise the volume to lets say 75% on my Jolida 1000RC the music tends to very fatiguing, sounds like the speakers are stressing a bit trying to push out all of the sonics the overall music enjoyment fades away and it becomes a headache. When I play at 30 to 50% the music is very enjoyable after 60 and up I have to give up. So I may be missing something, maybe my amp is not producing the power that the speakers need or maybe my speakers are not in tune with the amp and I may have a bad combo all together.

Today I went to audition some Sonus Faber with Musical Fidelity kw750 and kwtube pre amp WOW now thats what I call soudn and musical enjoyment however just in components alone 16k and speakers 9k Way too much out of my budget. Oh well, atleast I enjoyed the music when I was at the store. The audio consultant stated that I am serious need of power and that my 100 wpc amp was not doing its job especially for my type of music.

Quote from: AB on 21 Mar 2007, 06:00 pm

"the more I listen to my sound the more I feel like there is "something" missing."

Ah therein lies the rub...

Or, for the pedants;

ay, there 's the rub:

Can you try to be more specific about what you feel is missing? Knowing this the folks here might be able to save you a great deal of trial and error.
Though trail and error is interesting, it can be frustrating and, in the process, very expensive.

JLM · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 10:19 am »

Good comments regarding the harsh sounding room and use of a spl meter. At higher spls rooms do play a bigger part in what you hear. I'd use the spl meter with test tones so you can learn what varying frequencies sound like and how your system/room behaves (it'll probably drive you nuts when you see how badly the frequency response varies). It took just moments for me to gain a feel for spls and frequencies.

You started out by stating that you might just want to add a sub because you wanted full range sound. So why not just borrow a sub for a weekend and try it out? This would relieve both your current amp of any overload and take much of the "heavy lifting" off the speakers. It would give you full range sound and avoid any flabby deep bass issues that tube amps are known for.

I doubt if any of the replacement speaker options you're looking at would be much if any of a real upgrade (more of an apples to oranges comparison). They're just the current darlings of audio forums primarily because they're new. Don't let the itch lead you away from solving the real concerns you have.

vman71 · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 12:37 pm »

Have you considered upgrading the speaker xovers? That will give you sonic improvement across the board. Starting at about $250 for a pair of speaker xovers, it's something to at least consider.

Benefits to upgrading the speaker xovers:
- sonic improvement to the highs, mids, and lows
- wallet friendly upgrade
- improves the value of the speakers, speakers performance, and the overall system performance
- you don't have to ship your speakers to do the upgrade

Mike

Rocket_Ronny · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 03:00 pm »

These will take you to a VERY high level.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31630.30

and for more fun,

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31630.80

You can have them built in your budget. In fact I think Danny of GR Research is selling his built pair for $2,500.00.

You have to spend a lot more to beat them.

Rocket_Ronny

konut · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 04:46 pm »

Another vote for the sub. Relieving your VR2s of bass duties AND relieving your amp of the heavy demands of bass frequency reproduction will significantly improve the headroom on your amp. Its my OPINION that most audiophiles under estimate the transient requirements of accurate music reproduction. Most SPL meters are not quick enough, or resolving enough, to accurately represent the power demands of dynamic music matierial, especially at low frequencies. Not only will a good powered sub add the fundamental foundation to the presentation, it will allow your VR2s to do what they do best, which is to reproduce the frequency spectrum from 80hz on up. Proper integation is, of course, essential. A steep high pass filter of 24db per octave at 80hz will ensure that the VR2s will not 'see' any low bass.

PaulHilgeman · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 05:59 pm »

Hey,

I think we spoke via e-mail earlier this week. You are always welcome to come out to Arlington Heights and hear the Ronins. I could bring a pair down to your place for audition as well if you are interested.

-Paul

chgolatin2 · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 06:03 pm »

Connected at 8 ohm tap

Quote from: tvad4 on 22 Mar 2007, 08:42 am

Your VR2 loudspeakers are 87.5 dB/1w/1m and 7 ohms minimum (damn good - tube friendly).
With a 7 ohm minimum impedance on the VR2, it's unlikely your tube amp is creating an unbalanced frequency response, which was my first guess.

Certainly, with the proper amp/speaker combo you should be able to reach the volume you prefer with no distortion with the volume control turned up no farther then 12:00 - 1:00 on the dial...and lower if possible. Honestly, 75% on the volume knob sounds to me as though you like to REALLY crank it. Good for you. Me too!

Every 1 watt of power will produce 87.5 dB measured at 1 meter from your speakers. Each doubling of power will add 3dB of volume measured at 1 meter.

So:

87.5 dB = 1 watt
90.5 dB = 2 watts
93.5 dB = 4 watts
95.5 dB = 8 watts
98.5 dB = 16 watts
101.5 dB = 32 watts
104.5 dB = 64 watts

And for all practical purposes that's where your amp tops out...not figuring dynamic peaks, since 107.5 dB would require 128 watts.

It would be VERY helpful for you to buy a Radio Shack sound pressure meter and measure the typical volume at which you listen. It will enable you to make a more educated purchasing decision. Play your typical music selection at 75% on your Jolida while sitting in your listening chair. Then walk up and measure the decibels at 1 meter from the right or left speaker. This will tell you what volume you prefer, and from there you can determine your power requirements for the VR2 speakers using the pattern in the illustration above. You may find you need more power, but you won't know for certain until you do the measurements. Certainly, you should not require more than 200wpc, and this is the maximum continuous power rating that the VR2 are designed to handle, although they can handle 500wpc peaks.

The photo of your room shows bare floors, walls and a window with vertical blinds. Virtually no room treatment. This will exacerbate any sound issues you have, and it contribute to the fatiguing and hashy sound that you are presently experiencing. I would recommend treating the area behind the speakers with some sort of drapery on the window, and perhaps a couple of 5'-6' silk ficus plants behind the speakers. Also, treat the first order reflection points on the side walls with wall hangings of some sort: rugs, tapestries, drapes or sound panels. A throw rug on the floor will also help tremendously by reducing hard bounce off the floor.

BTW, do you have your speakers connected to the Jolida's 4 ohm or 8 ohm taps?

chgolatin2 · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 06:08 pm »

Yeah cool why not I am of work for a bit since I got injured fighting a fire, I will available so let me know or pm me. THANKS!

Quote from: PaulHilgeman on 22 Mar 2007, 05:59 pm

Hey,

I think we spoke via e-mail earlier this week. You are always welcome to come out to Arlington Heights and hear the Ronins. I could bring a pair down to your place for audition as well if you are interested.

-Paul

chgolatin2 · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Mar 2007, 06:09 pm »

Hmmm, interesting but arent my xovers good enough on the speakers. Damn I paid over 3k so they should be, lol! If not, what do you recommend? Interesting!

Quote from: vman71 on 22 Mar 2007, 12:37 pm

Have you considered upgrading the speaker xovers? That will give you sonic improvement across the board. Starting at about $250 for a pair of speaker xovers, it's something to at least consider.

Benefits to upgrading the speaker xovers:
- sonic improvement to the highs, mids, and lows
- wallet friendly upgrade
- improves the value of the speakers, speakers performance, and the overall system performance
- you don't have to ship your speakers to do the upgrade

Mike

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 02:34 pm »

Good talking to you yesterday! This morning, I took a look at your link and the system pictures. . . . I don’t think the speakers are the real issue, (drat, I make money by selling speakers:) . . . I think there are three main issues:.
1) You mention that it sounds good at say 30-50% on the volume control, and at 60-75% on the volume control is where it becomes hard and lacking warmth and body. As others have said, it is likely you are just plain running out of power. Depending on the gain structure of the amp, it is likely that much beyond 50% on the volume control, you are starting to run into clipping, which sounds harsh.
2) You mentioned the room is like 20 *30 or 20* 40, that is a big room. Big rooms can sound super, but they do tend to suck up the bass. Just think how easy it is to get thumping bass in a car (small chamber) and figure how much more air needs to be moved in a large space like yours. At lower to mid volumes, you speakers can move enough air to keep the bass proportionate to the rest of the spectrum. As the volume level goes up, the combination of a slight lack of power and not enough cone area means the mids and highs will get louder while the bass starts to compress.
3) When I looked at the pictures I had a bit of déjà vu. Beautiful room . . . reminds me a bit of one I had about 25 years ago. Hard surfaces everywhere. Again, no absorption for the mids-highs, so basically they build in intensity and actually start to reverberate. Then there is that huge, hard surface (TV) in the middle. That’s one reason I decided to go with a PJ

Here’s what I recommend. Start with a bit of free or nearly free experimentation. Try covering the TV up with a couple heavy blankets or quilts, no this won’t look good, but it’s just an experiment. Find a big heavy throw rug or two to lay out in the area directly in front of the speakers. Again, you could experiment with blankets if needed. Large plants with big leaves also look good and do a great job with diffusion. Ultimately, you may well want to check out room treatments from a company like GIK. They treated our room at RMAF with under $1k worth of product and made a HUGE improvement. I’d also suggest you try a good quality sub. A good sub will fill in the bottom for you and allow you to take some load off your mains and your amp. No whimpy subs in a room this large, you’ll need a good one. Hope this helps!

gooberdude · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 03:33 pm »

Hey Robert,

If you plan to go hear the Ronins from Paul Hilgerman, i'd like to go along...or I can drive.
those are some serious speakers from what I hear...

I think he just demo'd them at a recent Chicago Audio Society meet too. you might check their website for the impressions...

Last night i fried my amp. nothing serious, but sending it into David Belles tomorrow, it'll be 2 weeks or so before i'm back in action...kinda sucks. the problem stems from having 2 sets of speaker cables on the amps sp posts (and one of those wiggling loose). one step forward, 2 steps back. good thing i still have a backup amp.

Good advice from Mike Dzurko.

matt