Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 5762 times.

TheChairGuy

I've been on a tear of late comparing cartridges - as I'm pretty dang happy with my JVC deck, and I have a good handle on all the parameters of arm geometry and isolation - I'm narrowing my understanding of 'what makes vinyl tick'  :wink: to the cartridge.

I've been swapping out a Denon DL-160 (high output moving coil) with a new van den Hul stylus with the Grado G1+....and it's very easy to discern why there are so many opinions in cartridges.

So far - these are my observations thus far...

Denon DL-160 vdH

1. Best bass of the three MC's I've owned...I didn't think an MC could actually put out bass lines like this one does

2. Crystal clear sonics with great detail retrievel (I keep thinking my daughter is calling my from another room when playing 'live' recordings...but it turns out to just be the audience at the recording :))

3. Previously described as a very musical involving cartridge - it does indeed swing

4. Fast.  Don't know how to descibe it but transient attack is immediate.

5. A lot less syrupy midrange than any Grado, but not at all fatiguing

6. Amazing tracker...needing only 1.2 grams VTF with the vdH tip

7. Wide and very tall, and seeming very real, soundstaging

8. Upper treble not nearly as natural as the Grado. 

This is with only 2 hours on it.  I do not think that a used cartridge (with new tip) would need any time at all to 'run-in', but perhaps it does need it  :scratch: 

Hope to have some further observations as time goes on. 

As so much of this is subjective, simply based on the impressive performance of 1-7, I'd have to rate this vastly better than most I've heard in or around it's price point.  I do not at all know how much the van den Hul stylus is influencing matters...I suspect just a little (the standard Denon stylus is an excellent one to begin with for the money) as I'm hearing much the same as reviewer Ed Kobesky did when he wrote this excellent piece on it:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1031089600&read&d7&zzlFerrari&&

Befuddled

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 74
Re: Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus
« Reply #1 on: 12 Mar 2007, 02:18 am »
Been waiting for an opinion, keep me posted.
Joel

TheChairGuy

Re: Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus
« Reply #2 on: 12 Mar 2007, 04:45 pm »
Hey Joel/Bufuddled, et al,

Yeah, I'm really surprised at the 'pop' on this cartridge.  It's different than the 'wallop' of the Grado, but decent all the same.

I went to a concert of the local Youth Orchestra yesterday, about a 40 piece ensemble, in a local school gymansium. I've been listening to a lot of classical of late (something only my analog set-up seems to get harmonically right).  Comparing real versus what I have here in my listening room, I'd have to give the edge to the Grado, overall. But, and this is a very subjective area where I may well be in the minority - but, it's my opinion, nonetheless.

But, and this is a BIG one, I am so engaged by the musicality (I know, overused term...but my head is bopping to the music it produces, so I'll use it  :wink:) of this DL-160.  I think where it falters in the same area I have found with every Moving Coil (either owned or heard) and that is a certain fakeness to the treble (cymbols, triangles, even smaller string instruments and piano).  Unlike many other MC's I've heard, it is passably fake....keeping in tact the transient attack, detail retrievel, etc, etc.

NOTE: I am listening at 47K ohm input as that is the only one available to me...but the electrical figures of this cartridge would be better suited to 1 or 2K inputs. That difference may be meaningfully over-emphasizing it's treble faults and I hope to address that soon in my preamp situation.

So, maybe I'm listening to hi-fi and not music...but I like it, so there  :icon_lol:

Joseph Grado, founder and opera singer and buff, invented the moving coil concept and may have as many patents on cartridge design as the others combined (just do a Google Patent search and see for yourself).  He believed that the moving coil had an inherent flaw that no damping method could fully overcome (physical and innate in the design)...so he built (primarily) moving irons for his company.  Whereas, moving iron/magnets had electrical related restraints to overcome that (he believed) could be largely addressed with thoughtful engineering.

Whatever the method, it seems Denon has produced a high output device (I have 39 db of gain in my phono stage - it is more than enough, folks, if you've wondered if 1.6mv is enough) with just the right internal damping to make this cartride sound mostly believable, while retaining the inherent strengths of moving coils (fast/good snap, transient attack, transparent, huge soundstage).  I should also note, this cartridge reduces pops and clicks to nearly nothing (they are far more noticeable with the Grado)...probably a function of the extra lengths regarding damping that Denon has to do as a (good) moving coil manufacturer. The teeny vdH stylus tip and more inert boron cantilever could be part of that equation, too.

There is to much 'voodoo' surrounding cartridge design now....what I probably hear is the effect of vastly lower inductance and DC resistance figures in the Denon (or, any moving coil....but not all makers get the internal damping equation right).  The Grado, at 3mv output, has 45mh inductance and 475 ohms of resistance.  The Denon, at an official 1.6 (but really measured at 2.2mv) has well under 1mh inductance (probably more like 0.2 mh) and 160 ohms of resistance.  Less resistance means more signal reaching your ears eventually and lower inductance will mean lower internal noise levels, all other things equal.

So, Denon has taken the inherent physical flaws of a moving coil, damped them so they are greatly minimized to a point where you can realize it's excellent electrical properties and how they impact sonics.  Somehow automating all of this as only a large company can, and offering their cartridges at reasonable prices.

Bravo Denon  :thumb: - I'm quite sure what I'm listening to is a bit 'simulated', but also quite enjoyable in it's own right. 

 
« Last Edit: 21 Mar 2007, 12:51 am by TheChairGuy »

Psychicanimal

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1032
Re: Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus
« Reply #3 on: 12 Mar 2007, 10:23 pm »
You've gone overboard. 

Now you need to upgrade to a DD TT with VTA alignment & integrated damped plinth.

Call Kevin. aa

TheChairGuy

Re: Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus
« Reply #4 on: 12 Mar 2007, 11:09 pm »
You've gone overboard. 

I'm prone to it - says he, ashamedly  :oops:

I usually correct my tailspin before I crash completely.... :wink:

Psychicanimal

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1032
Re: Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus
« Reply #5 on: 13 Mar 2007, 01:46 am »
You'll never find a cartridge that has everything and if you go crazy you'll end up w/many many, swapping them constantly. :duh:

I'm hoping the modded Trackmaster I will bring a nice compromise, but have thought of the Denon 160 w/ a better stylus like you have just tried.  Looks like it is a step in the right direction and could be a better option than the Dynavector 20H.  I've never listened to either.  There's only so much I can do, especially nowadays in unemployed mode.  I also have two cartridge bodies: Shure V15III and Audio Technica AT-15S.  I'm hoping my guy in Belgium makes me a Moca wood body for the Shure--that would be a totally killer cartridge when fitted with a JICO SAS stylus.

Your next moves would be the Goldring Eroica HO and the Dynavector 20H.

***

TheChairGuy

Re: Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus
« Reply #6 on: 21 Mar 2007, 12:48 am »
A lot of this is re-hash of what I've already found, but it's worth mentioning.  The cartridge does have break in attributes - perhaps Mr. vdH did something with the suspension of the diamond needs a bit of wear to sound it's best, but clearly to my ears it improved each and every day.  As this is a used cartridge, it can't be much more than this that is breaking in.   

Not much to dislike: tracks great (at only 1.2g), very 'fast' reflexes, good dynamic 'pop' and it's not tonally thin (two areas I've found MC's to be lacking in the past), seems to be the quietest cartridge I've ever owned (razor thin vdH tip, inert boron cantilever, strategic mechanical damping ??) and, while it doesn't go out of it's way to provide a luxurious midrange, it's serviceably good. Imaging is wide, tall, deep and opaque sounding - like a cartridge of much more $$$.

1.6mv is more than sufficient with my 39db gain phono stage in my all tube pre-amp. The cartridge only really errs in a very slightly exaggerated/hyper treble that doesn't quite have the naturalness of the Grado G1+ I have. Music seems a bit closer to the truth with the Grado rendering it; but it somehow doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for this cartridge. The treble seems to have tamed a bit, or I have learned to enjoy it despite it, in the past couple days.

Tho it states compatibility with 47K inputs, I think some of that unnatural sheen may be alleviated by loading it into a 1K input - so, that's what I hope to do in further experimentation. With inductance figures well under 1mh (MC's just have less inductance than MM/MI's for the same given output, all in all) the cartridge should terminate into something closer to 1K ohms for flattest frequency response.

Benz's hi output MC's cite specifically a 1K load...Denon and Ortofon (unwisely, I think) specify 47K ohms. Tho it might scare off less buyers telling folks to use standard MM/47K inputs, they are doing themselves no favor in the sound of the treble loaded at 47K (probably).

I'm not sure how much benefit the vdH tip is contributing to what I hear as I've never heard one with the factory Denon elliptical on it (that I know of)....it does seem my view is echo'ed with other reviews I've read on the internet about it, however.

It's a good one, for sure  :D I've seenthe standard version for as low as US$135.00 online (on US ebay, and elsewhere somewhere)...I would consider that to be a rare bargain in today's marketplace for new cartridges. For a 50-spotter more than the AT440MLa or Grado Blue, you've got some interesting competition for your vinyl-allocated dollars today in a high output cartridge without breaking the bank  8)

TheChairGuy

Re: Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus
« Reply #7 on: 27 Mar 2007, 08:08 pm »
Having just swapped out preamp (from tube to APT-Holman SS preamp...that still needs breakin; it's seriously stiff), I'm listening to all my cartridges again.  It's amazing how all their characters have changed with the change of preamp.

It's somewhat simply the inherent differences in tube vs. solid state, it other ways it can be attributed to the far quieter phono section, with many more adjustments on board (including subsonic filtering) on the APT. 

The DL-160vdH and my ADC TRX-1 both suffer a bit from rising treble response....now can be tamed by judicious use of the (excellent) treble control I now have. The new preamp has a great headphone output that will allow me to listen to vinyl late at night while the rest of the house is in bed. I really miss good headphone listening  :D

The DL-160vdH, with probably less than 15 hours on it, does seem to be smoothing out.  I am surprised as the cartridge was used and I'd have thought wouldn't need running in, but I was told by the gentlemen in Holland that I bought it from that all vdh re-tips needs breakin time.  I don't know if that means Mr. van den Hul tweeks and re-stiffens the suspension system (or tweeks the damping within), but it does indeed seem to be absolutely true. 

TheChairGuy

Re: Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus
« Reply #8 on: 17 Apr 2007, 10:48 pm »
The Denon has probably 25 hours on it...I think most of the breaking in issues are over...tho I have read they need 50 hours to smooth out.

Like all the MC's I've heard thus far (not a lot, mind you), it has a rising, ever-present treble response.  Some folks hear it as additional detail - I hear it as additional, nothing more or less.

However, I now have this nifty little capacitance and resistive loading box from db Systems hooked up.  With judicious use of treble control on the APT preamp, and setting the cartridge at 200 ohms loading (a bit too low, likely, but preferable to too high 47K available to me otherwise) it tames the nasties nicely.

It still doesn't sound as natural as the Grados......but it's tamer, and better, now with electrical damping and judicious use of the trebel control.

Befuddled/Joel - what say you on it  :scratch:(I sold my other vdH tipped DL-110 that I bought with the DL-160 to him)

TheChairGuy

Re: Review: Denon DL-160 with (new) van den Hul stylus
« Reply #9 on: 18 Apr 2007, 12:35 am »
No need to guess, tvad.....the equation to figure it out is here: http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

Tap in .2mH for inductance (that seems to be where all the high output MC's are, or close to it) and 200 pf capacitance and you come up with 1kHz.  If you add more capacitance, that figure drops lower. So, you're dead on target for the right loading value for this cartridge (and, likely, your Eroica)

Another quick and dirty way is multiplying your cartridges internal impedance by 10-20x.  Often useful as many makers don't give you inductance specs to figure it out perfectly.

My little box has 200 ohms as it's highest setting. I asked David Hardaway/db Systems why the highest value isn't a bit higher to accommodate higher output moving coils - he said anything less than that is like an open system...might as well use 47K.

He seems to be a pretty astute guy, and has made high quality phono gear for decades now, but the numbers don't bear the same assessment.  Given that this relationship between inductance and capacitance is well known and now subject to whim, I suspect he's off abit.  But, all I have is 200 ohms as my highest setting to play with right now  :(