Tubes are Too Liquid!!!!

topround · « **on:** 4 Mar 2007, 12:24 am »

I went to a Linn dealer today who told me "tubes are too liquid" after I told him I had an all tube system.

I told him he probably never heard a good tube system, which he replied "solid state is the only way to go"

No wonder these 'high end' type guys are going out of business, they wear mighty big horseblinders.

bpape · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 12:27 am »

Yup. Unless you're running single driver, high high efficiency, tube front end and SS amps are the way to go.

YMMV

Bryan

bpape · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 12:58 am »

well, if they're really true salesmen - and not audiophiles, they're belief is in what makes them money. The ones I listen to are the ones that try to talk me OUT of spending money or the ones that say "sit and listen and see what YOU think"

Bryan

WEEZ · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 01:35 am »

Tubes are too liquid? Hmmm..I've got respect for Linn gear, but this guy needs to listen a bit more to his competition's stuff. The Linn room at RMAF sounded more 'liquid' than some of the tube rooms.

Yup. It's no wonder the hobby is dying.

WEEZ

PhilNYC · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 02:02 am »

Quote from: topround on 4 Mar 2007, 12:24 am

I went to a Linn dealer today who told me "tubes are too liquid" after I told him I had an all tube system.

I told him he probably never heard a good tube system, which he replied "solid state is the only way to go"

No wonder these 'high end' type guys are going out of business, they wear mighty big horseblinders.

I agree. Solid state sucks...

topround · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 02:10 am »

Ya know.. I have my eye on a pair of Channel Island monoblocks. I am going from tubes, past solid state, to digital. I heard my pre with the CI monoblocks at Phil's place and was very impressed.

I guess my point is that I hold nothing sacred.
Tube guys get all bent out of shape over tubes, and I am in that camp, I think tubes sound wonderful.
But something else can sound as good or better. I hold no ideological belief in one technology over another.
Yes tubes are romantic, and damn expensive and high maintenence. If some little digi amp comes along and floats my boat ... well I'm in for that ride! Or whatever it is that works.

The internet has opened many eyes to what is available, and may have closed the doors to many brick and mortar stores.

Knowledge is a good thing.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 02:16 am »

Home Theatre is where most of those shops make money now - runnin' tubes for home theatre is quite complex (costly, hot, and lots more upkeep). Those kinda' systems work best with SS...not for sound quality reasons so much as necessity.

The guys a salesman - he sells what he needs to make commish. He has SS to sell, ergo 'tubes are too liquid' or whatever he comes up with.

It's just economics at work...the two channel world is dwarfed by home theater, ya' know

gonefishin · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 02:18 am »

Quote from: tvad4 on 4 Mar 2007, 12:31 am

Very few audio salesmen or audiophiles I've met believe any system configuration/design other than theirs is correct.

LOL

so true...so true.

dan

TONEPUB · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 03:33 am »

Quote from: topround on 4 Mar 2007, 12:24 am

No wonder these 'high end' type guys are going out of business, they wear mighty big horseblinders.

Don't feel bad. The Naim and Linn guys are very anti-tube. I have owned both and enjoyed them, but I keep going back to having at least some tubes in my systems somewhere.

Bottom line, if you enjoy your tube system THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS! If you dig the sound, you're the one writing the check. As a fellow tube guy, the tube thing gets annoying sometimes when tubes pick the wrong moment to crap out but otherwise it's ducky.

I have heard very dry tube gear that sounds really close to solid state, and I have heard solid state gear that was so warm sounding, it almost fooled me for being tubed.. Just depends on the design philosophies of whoever is building it.

Don't let the "Linnies" scare you off. I used to have a buddy that was a Linn dealer tell me that the LP-12 was the ONLY decent turntable on Earth and everything else was junk. Then they started carrying SME, and he told me that the SME stuff was WAY BETTER than the LP-12....

Trust your ears!

smargo · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 04:19 am »

Quote from: PhilNYC on 4 Mar 2007, 02:02 am

I agree. Solid state sucks...

What an assinine statement coming from a so called dealer!!!!

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 04:23 am »

Quote from: smargo on 4 Mar 2007, 04:19 am

Quote from: PhilNYC on 4 Mar 2007, 02:02 am

I agree. Solid state sucks...

What an assinine statement coming from a so called dealer!!!!

Oh....lets see....a joker smiley means "funny"....so it must be a joke...

Right smargo....????

JoshK · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 04:23 am »

Quote from: smargo on 4 Mar 2007, 04:19 am

Quote from: PhilNYC on 4 Mar 2007, 02:02 am

I agree. Solid state sucks...

What an assinine statement coming from a so called dealer!!!!

He was kidding, or do you not get the jester emoticon? He sells SS amps, tube amps and hybrid amps. His reference system has hybrid amps (whose output stage is SS).

I see Chris beat me to the punch.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 04:26 am »

Quote

I see Chris beat me to the punch.

Josh....I didn't once mention I was gonna "punch him".....

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 04:58 am »

Good tube gear and good SS gear sounds a lot more alike than not alike. Good tubes means linear, clear, fast, tonally correct, a large soundstage, and transparent. Good SS means the same thing. The all-Boulder all-SS setup I heard at RMAF, with Wilson WP8s, comes to mind. That was like $75K of electronics I believe.

I like tubes because you can get there with much simpler circuits that are easier to repair and actually cheaper, I think, for the same performance, and you can do a bit of tweaking with tube rolling.

JoshK · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 05:01 am »

I would agree up to the point of cheaper. At least from this DIY'ers perspective, tubes are far more expensive to build than SS amps.

The inherent linearity of tubes means they need less supporting circuitry to obtain good results, but not necessarily lower distortion. For equally low distortion, the circuitry is just as complicated. However, IMHO, that is not needed because of the profile of the distortion and the linearity....I think this is where you get away a bit easier.

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 05:31 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 4 Mar 2007, 05:01 am

I would agree up to the point of cheaper. At least from this DIY'ers perspective, tubes are far more expensive to build than SS amps.

The inherent linearity of tubes means they need less supporting circuitry to obtain good results, but not necessarily lower distortion. For equally low distortion, the circuitry is just as complicated. However, IMHO, that is not needed because of the profile of the distortion and the linearity....I think this is where you get away a bit easier.

Exactly. The distortion characteristics of tubes - especially single-ended - are closer to 'reality' in some ways and definitely closer to what our ear/brain interface considers 'music'. Trying to cancel that distortion, in my view and in anybody's who favors low-to-no-feedback designs, does much more harm than good!

Tubes are more expensive up to a point (output iron, the glass itself?) but to really outdo tubes you need to spend more on SS. Does that make any sense?

Of course, you could just mix a Tripath chip with some nice syrupy caps in a battery power supply and get most of what SET gives for a lot less money & headache like a certain gentleman from the east coast..

PhilNYC · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 12:51 pm »

Quote from: smargo on 4 Mar 2007, 04:19 am

Quote from: PhilNYC on 4 Mar 2007, 02:02 am

I agree. Solid state sucks...

What an assinine statement coming from a so called dealer!!!!

Ok, you're right...tubes suck...

The_KiD · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 01:23 pm »

LOL.. This happens all too often. Both types of amplications have their pros and cons. It is interesting though as if you do visit a dealer who does not carry a Tube line though. They are usually very anti tubes. I am sure this is not the case 100% of the time but I myself have experienced here locally at a dealer when I owned my Cary SLI-80.

I was looking to upgrade my CD Playback source and got that look when asked kind of an amplifier I was using..

KiD

PhilNYC · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 01:37 pm »

Just to make sure things are clear, I don't think solid state sucks, nor do I think tubes suck. I gave up making generalizations about audio long ago.

I have 4 systems in my house...one tube-based, one solid state, one Class D, and one hybrid (tube/solid state). Love each one for different reasons. Admittedly, one of my manufacturers calls me a "non-dealer", but this is because I pay my bills on time...

boead · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Mar 2007, 01:47 pm »

Quote from: bpape on 4 Mar 2007, 12:27 am

Yup. Unless you're running single driver, high high efficiency, tube front end and SS amps are the way to go.

YMMV

Bryan

Humm, friends and myself came to the exact oppressive conclusion.

Solid State digital front ends are best; detailed and are most transparent. Tube pres and amps are superior in terms of musicality and the differences when tube rolling are more significant then rolling a couple of tubes of the output stage of a CD Player.

Oh and BTW: This is the reason I don’t go into Audio Boutiques anymore. And if I do, I act stupid, say little and just browse. Conversations lead to nowhere and I can’t listen there so what’s the point?