[lcrim]

I need some help. 
Woodsyi is a very generous man and loaned me a Benz Micro MC3 and I mounted it and began listening and now I'm in deep do do.  The cartridge, which first appeared on the scene in 1985, was the product which is generally viewed as the piece which put this firm on the map and now I know why.   The cart is in incredibly good condition given its age and the sound quality is the most detailed playback I've ever encountered and bests most Redbook CD w/o the etch or harshness.  The treble with this thing now defines for me just what a cymbal or plucked string should sound like.  Bass extension is wonderful w/o any overhang or bloat.  So what's the problem?
I will have to return it and now that I'm spoiled, I will have to get my own or I'll always feel the loss and these are not inexpensive toys for boys.  I am not sure which cart in their present line will get me there?   I am thinking the Glider L2.  Also, does anyone have a good relationship with a dealer they could recommend and how do you "work" the trade-in program to your best advantage? 

[TheChairGuy]

A horrible problem to have, Lar - great sound just when you thought it might not be attainable

Mr. woodsyi should be stoned and hung in audio effigy for doing this to you 

[SET Man]

...the sound quality is the most detailed playback I've ever encountered and bests most Redbook CD w/o the etch or harshness.  The treble with this thing now defines for me just what a cymbal or plucked string should sound like.  Bass extension is wonderful w/o any overhang or bloat...

Hey!

   Icrim, seems like you've just discovered the sound of the Benz-Micro cart. Same here! I've just bought the "ACE HO" version last week and have been listen to it for a few days now... not even fully broken in yet.

   And that is pretty much how I feel about this cart so far. Don't you love the midrange with that thing? My previous cart was Sumiko "Blue Point Special EVOIII" They are about the same price... the Benz is about $50 more after trade-in.

  I will write a shot review and comparison on both carts soon.... just want to give more time for the new Benz to settled in first.

  Well, there are now seem to be more talk about this company here and I think they deserved

Take care,
Buddy

[TheChairGuy]

I've never heard anything buy positives on their stuff (including the old Empire line of MM's they built).  Only their bottom-of-the-line offering, the MC20E (I think) has gotten so-so reviews.  The rest, totally stellar....I've even heard it said it has the Grado midrange with all the other good attributes of a great moving coil.  Tempting, ever tempting fella's.

Hey, what do I know ...I just bought a Denon HO with (new) vdH tip on ebay the other day (from a gent in Holland).  Another MC cartridge I hear nothing but raves about. Actually I bought two of them (1 DL-160 and 1 DL-110, both with vdH tips) as the price was right 

I just love my (Quicksilver, tube) phono section so much I don't want to go down the road of LOMC and introduce a new head amp or step-up into the chain.  So, I want HOMC this time (my last HOMC, a Sumiko Blue Point with vdH tip, was a friggin' dog - it was the worst sounding cartridge I've owned in 25 years).  I have a 'executed' DL-304 just sitting and waiting for re-tipping in case I want to take that plunge one day into LOMC-land 

As long as Mr. woodsyi keeps his old Benz' on THAT side of the Mississippi, I think I'll be able to steer clear of LOMC's for a while 

[lcrim]

A friend just told me:
 Don't cry because it's over; smile because it happened.

Got to stay in the moment.

[lcrim]

Anyways, I am wondering if the Glider L2 is worth the $200 premium over the Ace low output.  I reallt like the detail retrieval thing and I'm not familiar enough with the line to know if the Ace is good enough to get me most of the way there w/o spending the extra bread.
And then, like John said, there are some Denons that are pretty highly thought of and the DL 301II is only $259 and might be in the same class for far less.
Any thoughts?

[blakep]

This is really a difficult question to answer. As you point out, it's difficult to say as you haven't really compared to other available cartridges. Here, for example is a review of the $260 Denon 103R comparing it favorably to a $3,000 Benz (and this is on some pretty high quality analog equipment):

http://www.audiocubes.com/product_reviews_info/product/Denon_DL-103R_Moving_Coil_Cartridge.html?reviews_id=705

Then you have the issue of tonearm/cartridge compatibility and cartridge/phono stage compatibility; all these variables. In the past year, I've gone from the original MC 20 Super (not a Mk II) to the 103R and have no desire to buy any other cartridge (rest of my front end is Michell Gyro with FT-3 arm). I upgraded my phono stage after getting the 103R and that was a revelation as well. Your Minimax may be just a little light on gain with the Ortofon and if the Benz you used had a slightly higher output that might explain the improvement you are getting (better cartridge/phono pre matchup). The slight lack of gain may be giving you more of a closed in, anemic presentation with the Ortofon, which is very low output (around .20 mV I believe and really needing about 62 db of gain in most systems-when I tried to run that cartridge with 56 db of gain it was a disaster). Frankly when I went to the Denon from the Ortofon I felt that the high frequencies were pretty comparable (possibly a slight edge to the Denon) but that was with the inferior phono stage; even with the inferior phono stage the Denon walked all over the MC 20 Super everywhere else at a very reasonable price.

So, unfortunately, I don't think there is any simple answer to your question, at least not one that doesn't involve spending serious money!! Sorry.

[lcrim]

blakep:
I suspect that you are correct.  I searched for specs for the MC3 including output but didn't find them.  In any event, I'm pretty sure its higher than the .2 mV of the Ortofon. 
I am going to try something later today.  I have a second system with a Jolida JD-9 phono section which can offer quite a bit more gain than the EE MM.  I want to try it with the Ortofon/Technics system.  Perhaps, as you surmise, I need to give consideration to matching the gain spec of the EE MM phono section to a cartridge with slightly more robust output. 
Thanks

Edit: After running some basic calculations, it seems that .4 mV output is about the minimum that the EE MM phono section would be happiest with.  A bit higher would be even better.

[lcrim]

Follwup-I exchanged the phono sections.  I put the Jolida JD-9 with the Technics 1200 and the Ortofon MC20 Super MKII was remounted, not a big deal to switch carts when you have a Technics and spare head shells.  The Jolida has enough gain for the Ortofon's .2 mV output and has adjustable loading.
The Eastern Electric MM phono went into the bedroom system which has an old Dual CS 5000 and a Goldring Eroica LX w/ a .5 mV output.  Its not the way I wanted it but both players sound happy now.  Totally an accident but I stumbled into what is pretentiously referred to as a "synergy" in both setups. 
I may still pick up a Benz Micro Ace Low output but there's no rush now.  The Ortofon has shown itself to be very musical when it has sufficient gain and the correct loading.

[woodsyi]

Great news for you. 

I finally pulled the trigger on trading in my Ruby2 for a 3.  It will be here tomorrow.  I don't need the MC3 and you can keep it.  Frankly, I got that cart thrown in on a deal where the seller actually gave me a discount because it wasn't a glider as quoted.  Perhaps you can loan it to our esteemed TCG and see if we can get him agitated enough to start him on an upgrade path.    He's been sitting on that my-super-tweaked-system-is-all-I-need chair for too long. 

[TheChairGuy]

  Perhaps you can loan it to our esteemed TCG and see if we can get him agitated enough to start him on an upgrade path.    He's been sitting on that my-super-tweaked-system-is-all-I-need chair for too long. 

Oh noooooo, I see/feel another upgrade path coming - just when I did indeed fairly well settle in to that over comfy chair you speak of....

I KNOW I will likely succumb to the warm advances of the Benz and LOMC's...I am weak 

[lcrim]

I would be happy to forward it to you, John.  PM me.  Its a very nice cart, in terrific condition esp. for its age.

In any event, a big thank you to woodsyi. again.