[masi76gc]

Is anyone aware of or has done a meaning comparison between Tripath amps and Gainclone amps?  I am interested hearing not only about the technical differences, but also about sonic differences and experiences in real-life systems.

[JLM]

Welcome to AC.   

Both types of amps are supposed to have a sound between traditional solid state and tubes.  Chip amps are supposed to thrive with single driver or other easier loads.  I've used both (but no A/Bing) and both have gone out of production. 

The Tripath was a Red Wine Audio (see circle below) Clari-T that is a modded and battery powered 6 wpc integrated amp (that in renowned for sounding louder than 6 watts).

The chip amp is Channel Island Audio (see circle below) VMB-1 monoblocks that do 40 wpc.

Speakers are 89 dB/w/m, 8 ohm, 30 - 20,000 Hz single driver, transmission line cabinet (making for an easier load on the amp than the raw numbers would suggest.  IMO speaker/amp pairings need to reach 105 dB so that the amp has a commanding grip on the speaker.  So in this regard the Clari-T shouldn't work.

The Clari-T did a remarkable job considering the load it was pulling, but the VMB-1s turned the speakers from dinner party gentlemen into NFL linebackers in tuxedos.  And possibly because they're monoblocks the imaging is better with sound from each instrument sounding more discrete, focused, and of the correct size.  Soundstaging now takes on much more depth with the VMB-1s too.

OTOH Channel Island has replaced chip amps with digitals.

[Wardsweb]

I have built both. Here is a picture:


From purely a sound perspective, the DIY LM3875 gainclone has more punch but the Winsome-Labs Mouse kit amp has more detail in the upper end. This makes sense as the gainclone comes in around 90-100 watts. The Mouse comes in around 35-45 watts but uses a lot better components.

Mouse amp with arrays


Mouse amp with Roksan Rok One 2-way


LM3875 with arrays


LM3875 with 2-way towers and bookshelf


So you can see I do a lot of mixing it up to find synergy. If you don't try, you never know.
Both of these amps have converted many a non-believer. This when compared to other systems I own, from mega watt solid state to tubes systems (both SET and PP).

[Paul_Bui]

Hi Masi76gc,

I currently own both a Gainclone (AudioSector's Patek SE) and a Tripath (RWA Clari-T monoblocks), in addition to Decware SV83 low powered SE monoblocks.  Basically I agree with JLM and Wardsweb when the amps being used alone (not accompanied by an active preamp).  Consider this:  the Clari-Ts are only 6wpc while the Patek 50wpc.  The Ts used to clip on my speakers, especially at operatic female climax.  I acquired a tube pre and it seemed to help both amps.  Not only does it make the Patek drive the speakers with fuller more authoritative manner, it also helps raise the acceptable volume playback of the Clari-Ts through the same speakers.  Surprisingly, the tube-pre doesn't seem to impose its "signature" (if there's any) on the overall sound; I can't detect any overly warm or slight veil or sluggish bass when the tube-pre is in the loop.  If any, there are more control, more meat (tone, texture), more details, deeper and tauter bass.  My speakers are the same with JLM's.  True, the Patek has more punch, gutsier, but within their (Clari-Ts') acceptable range of playback volume (surprising loud even driving BB FTA-2000 speakers), there's a purity and upper range detail with the Clari-Ts that I sometimes missed when playing the Patek.

When I am ready, I will get the RWA Signature 30 or Sig70s.  Those toys seems to have almost everything I need:  magic power number (25w - 50w), finesse, purity, and speed.

[Scotty]

If you consider that most iterations of Tripath  and GainClone amplifiers are built with virtually no power supply the full scope of either type of amplifiers performance is unrealized. Before my custom DIY Tripath amp died a couple of months ago I enjoyed a highly dynamic and very detailed level of performance with what I consider in retrospect to be near state of the art bass reproduction accuracy. The amps drawback was that that it was harmonically thin in the midrange. The GainClone amp I built as a replacement has a wonderful midrange
and just as good frequency extension at both ends of the spectrum with as good or better resolution. The GainClone slips back a notch from the phenomenally lifelike bass that the Tripath had to only very good bass.
The high frequency reproduction is a little cleaner than the Tripath amp possibly because the GainClone is direct coupled at it's input and does not have a filter network on it's  output stage. Both amps used the same 40,000 mfd Jensen capacitor storage bank and a 500 watt transformer. The GainClone required the purchase of a lower voltage transformer with the same 500VA rating to realize my design goals.
The Tripath amp produced 108watts/ch into 8ohms and 220watts into 4ohms.
The GainClone produces 60watts/ch into 8ohms and 120watts into 4 ohms.
For either type of amplifier to really step up to the standard of Hifidelity reproduction requires that they be designed with a real power supply.
Both technologies are good enough that they literally live or die by quality
of their power supply. Or to put it another way, without a super low impedance
power supply of proper size they will never show what they are capable of doing.
When either amplifier technology is implimented with a large eough power supply
there is no audible clue that you are listening to only 60 to 100 watts/ch driving
your loudspeakers. Both amps are unfazed by the most dynamic material you can throw at them and they never loose control. The GainClone is even better than the Tripath is this regard in that it sounds perfectly clean and undisorted right up the point where it clips. The Tripath is dependent on the current rating
of it's output inductors not being exceeded into the speaker load it is driving in order for it to sound clean near it's clipping threshold. The output inductors in my DIY Tripath amp had an 11amp rating and this was just adequate driving my 95db sensitivity Tetons.
  A word of warning to anyone investing in a Tripath Technology based
amplifier. I could not repair my Tripath amp when it died because the chip
on which the amplifier was based had been discontinued and it's replacement
had also been phased out. No replacement part was available. Period.
Another crucial fact to be aware of, Tripath Technologies Inc.has filed for protection under Chptr.11  bankruptcy. Future replacement parts for amps based on their technology may turn into the element UNOBTAINIUM and leave you up a creek for a repair. See link below for the complete article.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070208/20070208006226.html?.v=1
Scotty

[Paul_Bui]

Good to know, Scotty.

[Wind Chaser]

I've owned a number of Tripath based amps and a Gainclone.  I would characterize the Tripath sound as being more up front and in your face.  By that I mean they are bold, not the least bit shy, reserved or laid back.  Those characteristics fit the GC which seems laid back and some what timid by comparison.  Both are very musical and terrific value.  I would also add that I find the GC to be more 3 dimensional or holographic.

[doorman]

Paul: With the above amps listed in your "collection", I'd be interested to know which one(s) get the most play?
 (I'm using a modded Decware Select, with a tube pre, but my little T amp has been in use an awful lot lately!)
                                                                                 Don

[Scotty]

Wind Chaser,if you give the Gainclone a good power supply it will project energy out into the room a lot like the Tripath. Both amps will produce a solid image between you and the front plane of the loudspeakers. The GainClone does not have the last few percent of dynamic attack that the Tripath has so in direct comparision it is slighty laid back. I would not characterize the Gainclone amp as intrinsically laidback or timid however. As I mentioned in my previous post,if you
give it a killer supply it will turn into a killer amp with enough dynamic attack to pin your ears back and give you the what I call the Memorex effect. Of course
with crap for a power supply all bets are off and such characteristics as you ascribed to the gainclone amp you had could indeed be fairly applied.
I agree that the GainClone seems to be the more holographic of the two amps.
When listening to the Thievery Corporation:CosmicGame CD I have a 360
sound-field with discrete images at varying heights all around me. The Tripath
amp would create the sound-field but the images were not as solid or discrete in their location in space. The only thing I notice about the Gainclone that detracts slightly from it's sense of realism is a slightly slower initial attack on sharp musical transients in comparision to a Tripath. Interestingly enough the amp is not consistantly slow on all music,you can just catch it out on some material some of the time. The fastest of the Gainclone chips has a 19volt/microsecond slewrate which should be fast enough but high frequency
intermodulation problems could be cropping up that in order to be avoided might require 40volts/per microsecond. If someone has an opinion on how fast an amp should be to avoid problems I would be interested in hearing it. Finer resolution
of information should come with a faster amp everything else being equal.
Scotty

[Paul_Bui]

Paul: With the above amps listed in your "collection", I'd be interested to know which one(s) get the most play?
 (I'm using a modded Decware Select, with a tube pre, but my little T amp has been in use an awful lot lately!)
                                                                                 Don

Doorman,

With the BB FTA-2000 speakers, you guess which amp gets the most play:  The Patek, you bet.  With its 50wpc of tasty and rich sonics (when paired with a tube-pre) it's the more universal choice among my amps.  But like I said, there're moments when the mood for purity, more delicate, less "macho" strikes and I miss the Clari-Ts (again, should be accompanied by a tube-pre).  Decware SV83Ms have to wait until I get a more efficient speaker such as a Lowther-based or something alike.  But someday I may put the tube-pre in front of the SV83Ms and see how they perform a mission impossible.

[JLM]

At an audiofest a couple of years ago we tried Decware Select (1.8 wpc) with FTA-2000s in a large (roughly 6,000 cu. ft.) room.  The result (compared to my Clari-T) was quite anemic.  EL34 push pull amps in the 12 - 25 wpc range provide adequate signal strength, but also bloated bass.  Please keep in mind that tiny amps really shouldn't be mated to average efficiency speakers.

Seems that Scotty and Dusty (from Channel Island Audio) agree about the value of a quality, beefy power supply. 

[masi76gc]

Thanks to everyone for all of the very useful input so far.

I posted the original questions because I am currently using a Sonic Impact Super-T amp in my bi-amped system, where the T-amp drives the lower octaves and a pair of Wright Sound 2A3 monoblocks is driving the upper octaves.  I did this strange bi-amping setup, because I liked the way the Tripath amp sounded in the bass (especially mid-bass) and how neutral it was in the midrage, but not how hazy and grainy it sounded in the treble (stock SMPS).  By using the 2A3 amps for the treble, I was able to get best of both worlds in a way.

Just yesterday, I went to the local DIY supply shop and picked up a regulated 12VDC, 5amp power supply.  In a very satisfying way, it cleared up a lot of the haze and grain in the sound of the T-amp.  Yet, the whole set up suffers from lack of seemless integration between the upper octaves and the lower octaves.  This problem is most evident when listening to well-recorded piano music (always my reference for evaluating systems).  This is to be expected when bi-amping with such different amplifiers.  So, my search is now on for a set of monoblocks, gainclone or Tripath, that really offers nearly the magic of 2A3, but without the typical problems of tubes.

Reading the various responses to the original post, it's apparent to me that how well the two designs perform is really system dependent.  So, let me describe the rest of my system:

- Analog front end is SOTA/various MC cartridges/Michael Yee Audio PFE-1
- Digital front end is Sony DVD as transport feeding Michael Yee Audio DAC1
- Preamp is Wright Sound WLA12A
- Interconnects are mix of Cardas, MIT, DIY
- Amps are Wright Sound WPA3.5 (2A3-based) monoblocks and Sonic Impact Super T
- Speaker cables are Nordost Flatline II Gold
- Speakers are Klipsh RB-5, Epos ES11, Omega TS-2R, and Madisound A-R.com kit
- Speakers are mounted atop Atlantis Reference 24 inch stands with sand-filled posts

In my smallish room (14x17), the RB-5s produce sufficient bass in most cases.  So, what I care more about is coherence, imaging, detail, and microdynamics.

I have recently learned about another Tripath amp called "Trends Audio TA10", which is based on the same chip as the Super-T, but with better parts from what I can tell.  Many reviews claim that this amp has much cleaner treble.  It is also claimed that it can be bridged for mono operation?  I have been curious about this amp.  I have also been considering the Gaincones that Scott Nixon makes, the 40wpc monoblocks.

[Gordy]

I highly recommend you read up on the mono blocked "My Reference RevC" current pumps which use the 3886 chips.  By all reports they out class every chip amp and gain clone out there and they'll definitely be my next amp project.  Here's a link to the DIYAudio thread...  My Ref

The revC kits can be had here for $135 plus transformer, heat sink, chassis and the usual connector bits... Twisted Pear

Info on Mauro Penasa's latest "Evolution" amp can be had here... Evolution

Enjoy!

[shep]

Masi, I have a modded Trends. Very nice little amp, very sweet extended top end. But no, it cannot be bridged.

[Sigfreed]

Hi Masi76gc- I also have been using the Wright 3.5 amps with my very sensitive horn speakers(103 db).I decided to test drive the Red Wine Audio Signature 30(30 day return policy) T-chip amp and I really really like it.I can't say it is exactly like the Wrights but it sure is worth a home audition i would say especially with the return policy in effect.It's sound(after some good hours)is very SET like or like the Wrights.I had started a recent thread over on the Red Wine Audio circle if you are further more interested in reading what i have had to say about it.I am really enjoying it.Can't say i will be giving up the Wrights but i am not giving up this amp either i do not believe and that is saying alot knowing the sweetness our Wrights are capable of.Anyway, i stumbled upon the amp recently and decided to listen to it.There are some very good reviews of the amp out there and some good audiocircle reviews from members to read over on that circle as well.I just stumbled upon it somehow the last few months and am glad i did.Pretty amazing little amp.Good Luck!

[Occam]

Masi, I have a modded Trends. Very nice little amp, very sweet extended top end. But no, it cannot be bridged.

It already is, as are, I believe, all switching amps that run off a single voltage rail, such as the lower powered Tripaths, Nuforces, Ice, etc.... These are generally called single rail bridged amps. One could theoretically make a non bridged single rail switching amp if one coupled the output through a capacitor, but I can't see why anybody would want to.
FWIW