[vinny1]

Hi Guys,

am a total newbie into audiophile stuff..but I have been reading up here and think I might benefit from some room treatment..if I were to spend a max of $250 bucks as a start, what would you guys suggest..I know you need pics of the room to help. but here is some bare specs

a 12X16 room with an open wall on the back..speakers are actually along the 16 foot side. due to space constraints my speakers are 12-18 inches from the wall. currently use monitors with an odyssey tempest/stratos combo as far as equipment goes..

any suggestions?

[fajimr]

vinny

are you willing to DIY?  ethan has a very good primer out there, imho.  go to his website and there is a lot of information on how to treat a room.  once you do that, then you can figure out what you might want.  I think most people usually start with bass traps....

good luck
jim

p.s. here is a photo of my DIY bass trap  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=832&pos=1
haven't got photos of my first reflection traps up yet

[vinny1]

Jim,

I could do DIY (havent done it before but there is always a first time). But how do i know where to place them

thanks
vinay

[gooberdude]

Hey Vinny,

My opinion on this might be unpopular, but i'm a newbie too and just spent $250 on room acoustic treatments about 4 months ago.  By far, its the BEST $250 i've spent on audio to date.

IME without acoustic treatments, you really aren't hearing your system the way it should be heard.  

Due to $ constraints and space constraints, i purchased a Deluxe Room Tunes kit from Michael Green Audio for $225 during  sale last fall..now i thinks its $250 + shipping.    It operates off a difft acoustic theory than the bass traps and 1st reflection treatments that are most common.

The Room Tunes system i have is very small, and simply controls the sound pressure in the room.   i've managed to hide several of the pillows too, so my L/R doesn't look like a freak show.  the improvement in sound is still quite exciting to me.  One of the few tweaks that has not 'become old'...

I have large floorstanding Thiel speakers and a very loud and accurate sub.   If this system sucked, i'd know about it real quick.  And my room is farily large:  15' x 25' x 8' high ceilings + a 13' x 10' room, its an L shaped room.

probably the best part for me, as a consumate tweaker, is that no further acoutic treatments can or should be used with this system...NO need for additional bass trapping or anything, and this is straight from Michael Green.  I purchased bass traps from ATS acoustics (very nice and reasonable products) but they wreaked havoc in my room when used in conjunction with the Room Tunes.  Now, this is nuts, but both bass traps lay in the trunk of my Honda and make it rock bigtime.

There is a new kid on the block though, Cathedral Sound panels.  I believe the Cable Company is selling these, and has a lot of info on their site.   The system will cost you a bit more, but this might
be the acoutstic treatment that changes a LOT of folks minds...  i have no experience with it, but the Cable Companies site mentions it works on a theory similar to Room Tunes...controlling the room's energy versus absorbing sound.

no affiliation with these firms, just a very happy MGA customer.   If interested in these, don't navigate their awful website.  Look them up at Audiogon and shoot Anthony an e-mail.  


As the other poster mentioned, there's a host of threads here and at audioasylum about DIY acoustic treatments...most involve LARGE amounts of Owens Corning 703 fiberglass insulation.   Both Jon Risch and Ethan Winer have excellent info on this route.

If you go with panels that aren't DIY, i can vouch for the ATS acoustic panels that I own.  Good construction & a fair price.



matt

[Kevin Haskins]

Hi Guys,

am a total newbie into audiophile stuff..but I have been reading up here and think I might benefit from some room treatment..if I were to spend a max of $250 bucks as a start, what would you guys suggest..I know you need pics of the room to help. but here is some bare specs

a 12X16 room with an open wall on the back..speakers are actually along the 16 foot side. due to space constraints my speakers are 12-18 inches from the wall. currently use monitors with an odyssey tempest/stratos combo as far as equipment goes..

any suggestions?

I'd visit Ethan's site and support him.   He has put out a lot of information and provides a top-notch product that is perfectly in line reality.   No BS....

I typically recommend the following approach for virtually any room. 

• Deal with early reflections
• Bass absorption (done in corners)
• Parametric EQ (you only need about 2 bands) to knock off a couple of the largest peaks at the listening area

[vinny1]

Hi ,

Thanks for the great input.. I will check out MGA and Ethan's site. If I had to choose between corner traps and early reflections would I go for the corner traps? from what i read that seems to be the first one to attack.

thanks
vinay

[gooberdude]

i can't answer that, i have no clue!

the systems, or complete kits, from firms like MGA or Eighth Nerve seem to address all the problem areas at once...

the Room Tunes kit i use doesn't address the 1st reflections whatsoever, it controls the pressure in the room.

again, an honest shill!!

[crossroadazn]

 4 moths ago I bought 48 1'x1'x2" acoustic foams and put on first reflection points, adjacent walls ? and the back wall but they didn't help much ( very lively room ). Then last week I won the auction on eBuy of 2 16"x4' tube trap and 3 26"x4'x4" panels for $142 yes " lucky me " to replace the acoustic foams and they changed to the better: bass note's more focus, taut and presurize the room but the sound still " noisy " at the upper end so I rolled the acoustic foams to form 1'x5" round and put them on the ceiling adjacent walls to my suprice the sound now likes float in space and the room disapear everything's quieter ( blacker ) soundstage's more expansive and more there there  . What a different room treament can make more than anything else I experienced 

http://bayareashutters.mysite.com/cgi-bin/util/sitebuilder

[bpape]

For $250, find some 2" OC703 or equivalent and make yourself some 4" thick corner absorbers and some 2" thick reflection panels. 

Bryan

[fajimr]

If I had to choose between corner traps and early reflections would I go for the corner traps? from what i read that seems to be the first one to attack.

in my room (which had wood floors and lathe and plaster walls), I did the bass traps first and noticed a considerable difference not only in bass but higher frequencies also (seemed to make everything sound more clear).  3 months later when I did my 1st reflection, it really tightened up the soundstage. 

most of the cost will be in the fiberglass- especially since you usually have to buy a package of 8.  The 6lb is usually suggested for the bass and 3lb for the first reflection but as bryan said you can use the same for both (I used up most of one package on my bass traps but still have quite a bit left for first reflection points).  The pine I used was pretty cheap (and go for the nicer quality as it stains better) and burlap is very inexpensive.

good luck
jim

[Ethan Winer]

Kevin,

> I'd visit Ethan's site and support him. He has put out a lot of information and provides a top-notch product that is perfectly in line reality. No BS.... <

Thanks very much.

> I typically recommend the following approach for virtually any room. <

So do I. Now, to do this right will cost more than $250. Such is life. Vinny needs to decide if he wants good or he wants cheap.

--Ethan

[Rob Babcock]

Not to contradict Ethan, who knows far more about this than I do...still...I'd have to say you will get a lot of improvement from the 8th Nerve stuff.  The entry level Response (similar to the Room Tunes) are much less effective than the Adapt but are a good place to start.

Eventually I'll probably do a bit more elaborate treatment with some of Ethan's panels and/or some GIK peices, but for now my 8th Nerve stuff has made a vast improvement (again, note that I have 4 Adapts and a bunch of Response, fwiw).

[bpape]

I'd agree that if you're going to go with this type of treatment, the 8th Nerve is a much better value than the MG stuff.  Treating corners like this will certainly help some.  What it won't buy you is any serious control of the bottom end or the decay times in the room.  Doing the corners definitely changes the sound.

Bryan

[Rob Babcock]

Yeah, I agree.  But it's much better than bare walls.  A good starting point on a budget.

[bpape]

Absolutely Rob.  No argument here.

Bryan

[gooberdude]

If firsthand experience counts for anything, the MGA kit controls bass extremely well and decay is there, in spades.   Don't go stating things that aren't true Bpape!   not calling you out, just wondering if you have 1st hand experience with the Room Tunes Deluxe.   my experience is difft than you report...

I believe the kit I have is the Deluxe kit...the pillows themselves are the large size.

Anyhoo, the 8th nerve products do not operate on the same principle as MGA..only the new Cathedral
sound panels do.   AFAIK the only similarity to the 8th nerve Response products and Room Tunes is looks...the theories of 'why' these 2 products work are quite difft.

a few months back i purchased a sub and figured the Room Tunes would finally fail (by not being able to control deep bass)...nothing could be further from the truth.

A few weeks ago a buddy brought over his 12 string mandolin (ancient Gibson, just incredible).  he commented that besides from the auditorium in college where he performed, my condo sounded simply amazing for acoustic music.   as in, my little home sounded as good as a room designed for acoustics...

I have no doubt that the more expensive products are worth the $, but for a kit that treats an entire room AND allows for decay and bass trapping...$250 is a pittance in this hobby and i'll continue to pimp the RT Deluxe kit i enjoy daily.  i'd recomend it to beginners especially, there's zero guesswork or placement options really.

a friend has an RTA and nice mics, we've been BS'ing the last 6 months about bringing it over for some tests.  my system keeps changing -equipment wise- so a flat response this week is gonna change next week.   At some point though i'll do it and post the findings...i have a feeling they might upset some people 


Is the anti-MGA sentiment arise from issues with his products, his bitness practices or his hair???   i can't put my finger on it....  a few years back ('99 - '01) it seemed every Stereophile mag photo of CES booths and rooms showed his pillows installed, and nearly every audio salon in the City where i live has them in their demo rooms.

[klh]

Take a look at my thread. I've made changes since, but it gives you an idea of what you can do with rigid fiberglass and mineral wool. I used the mineral wool for the bass traps as it is denser (8#) and cheaper ($0.80/ft^2) than most fiberglass panels (3# and $1.20, respectively). The total cost for my room treatments was around $800 (if I remember correctly). This is obviously more than your budget, but it shows what can be done. My extensive treatments could have easily cost 4 times as much if they were off the shelf.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=32017.0

I'd also echo Kevin's suggestion to visit Ethan's website. The bulk of the theory I used to design my ensamble came from his work. You'll find that there are many ways to skin a cat... ultimately you'll have to decide what makes the most sense to you.

[bpape]

Goober.

If you're happy, that's what it's all about.  I'll just say that I'd bet that I can come in and measure the decay times in your room from 150Hz down with and without the treatments and there wouldn't be much if any change.  I'm not saying they're not doing anything - just that they're not dealing with bass decay times.

Absorbing bass and controlling it's decay within a room simply take size - it's pure physics.  A treatment a couple of inches thick and a few inches wide isn't going to do diddly to a wave that's 25 FEET long.  Even proven methods like sealed membrane absorbers and Helmholz resonators which can be reasonably thin - require MANY MANY square feet of coverage to be effective.

Also, I never said the MGA's weren't a decent product - I simply said I thought the 8th Nerve was a better value.

Bryan

[vinny1]

Kevin,

> I'd visit Ethan's site and support him. He has put out a lot of information and provides a top-notch product that is perfectly in line reality. No BS.... <

Thanks very much.

> I typically recommend the following approach for virtually any room. <

So do I. Now, to do this right will cost more than $250. Such is life. Vinny needs to decide if he wants good or he wants cheap.

--Ethan

I agree with Ethan..to do this right costs more...but I have to start somewhere as and when I can afford it..if i wait to have a few grand in my pocket to spend on this , it will never happen.. such is life...and I dont expect to solve every single issue with my meagre budget..but where do I start? would a couple of panels from GIK or real traps be a good start? I can mount them in the corners and later on move them to FRPs when i get the bass traps

vinny1

[vinny1]

 Hi All,

Thanks for the useful tips.. Another stupid question..how do i measure the acoustics in the room to figure out which holes i would need to plug? I was reading up on the use of the spl meter ..but that helps placement...how do i find which frequencies are resonance modes/have longer decays etc

thanks
vinay