Which compnent do you consider to be anchor of system?Speaker, Amp,Source,Etc.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #60 on:** 22 Feb 2007, 11:24 pm »

Quote from: rollo on 22 Feb 2007, 04:16 pm

Mike, Did you notice any effect on tonality with the Harrison Lab in lines? . . . Could you elaborate in more detail your experience with the HL in lines.

I don't have them yet, I ordered them today. I'm working on reconfiguring the system to have a counterpoint to the TacT. I've used them for subs but clearly that isn't the same thing. If they aren't transparent (and I wouldn't be surprised), I'll be looking to another solution to accomplish the same thing. For me, getting all those pro 10"ers on big juice up to 70 hz just blows up the room, in a good way.

konut · « **Reply #61 on:** 22 Feb 2007, 11:57 pm »

Maybe I should bring down my Marchand XM46 HP filters, @70hz 24db per octave, and we can compare it to the HLs

TONEPUB · « **Reply #62 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 05:04 am »

My amplifier and preamp have been the cornerstone of my system...

I can use any speakers with the amp and the preamp is very neutral,
so I feel that it stays true to the musical source..

Srajan Ebaen · « **Reply #63 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 10:34 am »

Practically speaking, the room of course is the first and last variable. Most of us just aren't lucky enought to rent or buy a house/flat on the strength (or not) of its sound room alone. And even if we were, exactly how are you gonna test your sound-room to be before committing? You could do a few quick measurements but an empty room will measure differently than one filled with furnishings.

So realistically, if we have to make do or work with what we have, the first thing is the speakers. Not only are they still the most distorted, voiced and variable link in the chain, their being well matched to the room or not will be a bigger hurdle to overcome later (or present no realhurdle) if the room/speaker combo has been thought of and matched carefully.

With the speakers selected, amplifier power, damping factor and overall voicing become the next consideration so the speaker determines the amp.

That's how I'd look at it. And I'd add that a lot of speakers are too much for the room they're used in and thus inappropriate.

Especially smaller rooms can cause bass problems and it's here where an outboard sub with perhaps inbuilt parametric EQ to notch out the 2 or 3 worst room node spikes can really help a lot, never mind adjust the relative bass balance which could be too high on a passive full-range speaker.

In a lot of cases, a superior sat/sub setup really is the ticket, and if the frequency dividing happens in the low-level domain prior to the amp/s, even better.

When I still worked at Soliloquy and made a living selling speakers (to dealers), the best-sounding combo we had, in my opinion, was the 5.0 monitor with the S-10 sub. Outperformed everything else up to the big 6.5 which could outperform the threesome but only in a sufficiently large room.

A small active speaker with the necessary amplification and compensation circuitry built in such as pro companies make (or Paradigm used to) can really be an incredibly compact, high-performance package with all the voicing flexiblity an end user needs. HiFi is funny in how it has ostracized tone controls, loudness controls, mono switches, active crossovers and such. It's taken away flexibility which, if we had it, would often call an end to the endless upgraditis which is nothing but patch work and shooting in the dark, hoping for the magic balance by way of a combination that, by sheer luck, happens to work in that room.

When we trash talk tone controls or analog compensation/EQ circuits, we don't point the same finger at the passive crossovers inside our speakers. Same thing tho. If you take 'em out of the speakers and make them active, you've minimized a major source of veiling and nonlinearities. It's not that the parts or circuits in outboard low-level mode are any better. It's that running "active" with dedicated amps and nothing between amp and voice coil eliminates problems endemic in the passive loudspeaker approach - which of course is the norm in HiFi.

That's why I think Zu and WLM and companies like them are on the right track. They go back into the pro sector and integrate bits and pieces of what's common MO there into home hifi. Whether it will catch on large-scale isn't at all clear. Prolly not. Hifi-ers love the freedom to mix and match wildly and inefficiently. It's part of the whole appeal of our disease...

Of course if we relocate, we have to start all over again. "Welcome", sez the retailer, "I've got just what you need, friend." And so it continues

aod · « **Reply #64 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 10:58 am »

To me, the order of priorities before setting up a system are the
room-speakers interaction
(many a time, a good parametric equiliser has a strong supportive role in this)

I use the JBL LSR6328P + LSR6312SP for my primarily analogue based rig
They have a one frequency room mode correction and near wall compensation plus high frequency add subtract by 1dB for lively/dead rooms.

What I'm saying is that the room speaker interaction can make or break a system.

Once the room-speaker thing is set up, the rest of the gear can strut their stuff, not before.

So, Srajan is spot on.

ps
I am looking for a superb ANALOGUE parametric equiliser.... any advise?
GML comes to mind ..

Jag

Soundbitten · « **Reply #65 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 02:33 pm »

Another vote for speakers .

pacifico · « **Reply #66 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 05:07 pm »

the sun

denjo · « **Reply #67 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 05:36 pm »

While speakers are very important, I think the soul of a system lies with the preamplifier. You hear audiophiles talk about wanting a warm system (tubes) or a dynamic system (SS/digital) or some other quality which appeals to their ears and heart. Its the preamplifier that will be the single most important equipment that will convey them to such a musical landscape, not so much the speakers and amplifiers. Sure, there are sonic differences when different amplifiers and speakers are used but from my experience of swapping between various preamps, I discovered there were more significant sonic differences that I would achieve in this exercise than with changes of the other components. For me at least, I think the preamplifier was my system's cornerstone - get that right and everything else fell into place. Next up, the source. Perhaps speakers and amplifiers were next in the chain.

Best Regards
Dennis

In The Groove · « **Reply #68 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 05:50 pm »

I'm going to cheat and say it is the amp-speaker combination.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #69 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 06:03 pm »

Rollo,

It might have been helpful if you had defined what you meant by "component" and "anchor." Some folks consider the room to be a component, for others the electricity coming out of the wall and their credit card that makes the purchase, or even the software / music. By anchor do you mean what holds your system together or what is most important or the biggest determining factor like, room speaker synergy, or amp and speaker synergy?

konut · « **Reply #70 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 06:18 pm »

Quote from: denjo on 23 Feb 2007, 05:36 pm

While speakers are very important, I think the soul of a system lies with the preamplifier. Dennis

I got no soul!

No, I didn't sell it to the devil. It's passive. aa

ZLS · « **Reply #71 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 07:15 pm »

If you cast this question in the form of a mathimatical equation, the room is the constant and the other components become the variables. Continuing with the mathimatical analogy, and involving the latin principle of Reductio Ad Absurdum (Reducing To The Absurd) the speakers become the most important link in the chain. Why? You are limited by the dimensions and layout of the room. You cannot place 9' tall speakers in a room with 8' ceilings. More realistically, what flexability do you have in the placement of speakers? Depending on how much distance from the rear wall you can place the speakers will be a determing factor in which type of speakers you will purchase. Bipole, Dipole, Rear Port, Front Port, Planar, Electrostatic Omnidirectional et al. How far apart the speakers can be placed also plays a significant part in the equation.
Once the parameters of speaker size and location are established, and the speaker purchase is made accordingly, then the other variables (components) can be determined based on the individual preferences of the listener. Obviously you need an Amp of sufficent power to drive the speakers, but that is determined by the type of music you listen to. Digital, Vinyl, CDP (SACD) Hard Drive, Tube SS, Preamp, No Preamp, all up to indivual taste.
The room is dicated by financial reality, the speakers are limited by the physical constraints of size and space.

bpape · « **Reply #72 on:** 23 Feb 2007, 07:56 pm »

To me, it's the speakers. The speakers are chosen to work with what you listen to and to work within your room situation. You purchase an amp that will drive them correctly and effectively. The preamp I'll agree is the soul - but is more of a tuning instrument or just a switching mechanism in some cases. Realistically, other than the room, I'd say the source(s) and the speakers determine most of the rest of the system.

Bryan

denjo · « **Reply #73 on:** 24 Feb 2007, 01:15 am »

Hi Konut

You wrote:
I got no soul! No, I didn't sell it to the devil. It's passive.

That means less soul but certainly not soul-less!

I have a passive too and I know what you mean!

Best Regards
Dennis

rollo · « **Reply #74 on:** 24 Feb 2007, 11:03 pm »

Quote from: denjo on 24 Feb 2007, 01:15 am

Hi Konut

You wrote:
I got no soul! No, I didn't sell it to the devil. It's passive.

That means less soul but certainly not soul-less! I have a passive too and I know what you mean!

Best Regards
Dennis

If you try a copper Bent passive you may get your soul back. Silver IMO after having both just does not offer that organic soul presentation. The copper wired Bent or the addition of the new Promitheus active pre/buffer with optional gain settings [designed to match system gain requirements] will do the trick.

rollo

konut · « **Reply #75 on:** 24 Feb 2007, 11:46 pm »

Not to start an endless exchange here, but I've found that components with 'soul' add an overlay to the music that I'd rather do without. I'd rather the music convey its own soul. I'd like to think that the components I've chosen just get out of the way. The less circuitry/components/interconects the better.The gain my source components output contain enough gain so that I don't need any additional from an active. Would a different passive be different/better? Probably. If I could audition some easily that were not crazy money, I would. But right now I'm enjoying ignorant bliss. Thanks for your concern though.

frustrated · « **Reply #76 on:** 25 Feb 2007, 01:50 am »

I think that the speakers, amp/preamp, and source must form a triangle that works with a certain synergy to anchor your musical taste. While individual pieces and change the relationship I feel it is how all three sides fit together that make the whole. I like to try different things keeping two the same and see how it alters the perception.

nodiak · « **Reply #77 on:** 25 Feb 2007, 04:28 am »

Interpreted another way for me the pre/amp (integrated amp) is anchoring my current system. I went for a feel good system based on the sweet distortion of this el84 int. amp. I'm trying not to have other flavors take over...for now.
Don

Eduardo AAVM · « **Reply #78 on:** 25 Feb 2007, 08:59 am »

For my the basis is amp-preamp-source and I "tune" my system's sound choosing different kind/type of speakers to "color" it

JLM · « **Reply #79 on:** 25 Feb 2007, 10:35 am »

ZLS,

Last year I had (what will probably be a once in a lifetime) chance to build a dedicated listening room. As with typical residential construction, ceiling height was limited to 8 feet. And my jerk builder wouldn't use gauge metal channels to allow the drywall ceiling to be isolated from the floor above. But the rest represents a very practical yet close to ideal listening environment. As we needed 60% of the basement and the rest of the perimeter finished anyway, it was only a matter of carving out of the storage area this room.

With the above previse I estimate that the room cost $200 more than a standard construction:

1.) $150 for staggered stud interior walls (builder insulated nearly all interior wall cavities anyway);
2.) $100 for three cryo'd hospital grade electrical duplex convenience receptacles;
3.) -$50 for using an insulated fiberglass exterior door with weather stripping instead of the cherry doors used elsewhere in the house;
4.) No cost for running three dedicated circuits with their own ground as the electrical was a flat fee;
5.) No cost for using insulated flexible ductwork as much of the house used it anyway;
6.) No cost for properly proportioning the room.

It is a luxury to have my own room. Now I can listen when I want, as much as I want, and (within reason) as loud as I want. Of course the real acoustic advantages are ideal physical setup and the near elimination (see above) of outside noise so I don't have to turn it up. Initially it felt weird to be so isolated in my own house, but I got over that.

You raise an excellent point. I've never understood investing what most of us do in a system that goes in a shared room with all the limitations. OTOH a system based on use of headphones would take care of all this, eh?