MM or MC cart.-Which do you prefer and why?

rollo · « **on:** 20 Feb 2007, 03:35 pm »

What is all the fuss about the differences of cartridges.What do you use and why?rollo

gooberdude · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 03:49 pm »

long time listener, 1st time caller....

AFAIK, its all TT dependent and personal preference. i haven't spend a lot of $ on cartridges, but can tell that some work with certain tonearms and decks better than others.

In terms of general and sweeping statements, for me MM represents warmth and truth and force to the sound whereas MC is a little 'light in the britches'.

I just haven't heard the midrange bloom (or whatever makes voices sound scary real) in a decent MC set-up... I also haven't heard too much deep bass. Or rather, if there is depp bass, again the midrange isn't there.

i'm young and a rocker though...at this point in my life i want a cartridge that conveys emotion rather than ultra detail.

woodsyi · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 04:07 pm »

Oh, goober. Koetsu = midrange bloom.

gooberdude · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 04:56 pm »

Sorry! i forgot one caveat...

MC midrange bloom is crazy expensive!!!!

some day i'll get there, lots of bills to pay until then though...

For those that are really familiar with the higher ends cartridges...do the japanese made cartridges have this bloom, compared to those made in other parts of the world? i've heard the more expensive Shelter's have it too.

i'm digging the Audio Technica sound....

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 05:33 pm »

I'm pretty much where Matt/goober is on cartridges.....but older (dammit!) and musical tastes run towards a lot less rock these days.

I've had two MC cartridges, both high output, and perhaps they weren't representative of the best of the breed, but I found them tonally thin, and lacking bass heft. I'm told that the real benefits of moving coils begin with low output ones. but, there too I've hard at shows, and been mostly unimpressed (same issues - tonally thin and bass heft missing). I find all of them very 'hi-fi' oriented, and less musically involved.

Most of the MM's don't thrill me either.....but I keep coming back to Grado (a Moving Iron, to confuse you further) as my overall choice with the most benefits with least significant issues.

It's such a personal decision, tho - you really need to hear and decide for yourself. Properly implementation of either type is really the key to enjoying it.

I expect to hear good CD and great vinyl with that Italian food when I'm in town, rollo

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 05:52 pm »

MM simply because it is cheaper and easier. I don't do a lot of cartridge rolling though. I'm happy with what I have and ignorance is bliss.

Grado Green is my flavor.

lcrim · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 06:07 pm »

Surprised that this thread wasn't in the Vinyl section.
The cost of using a LOMC isn't that bad. It is higher than MM and then you need a phono section w/ sufficient gain. I made the jump from MM to LOMC last year and immediately had to have one in my bedroom system as well. I've been told that at some point I will find good MM's attractive again. I did switch back to the "Groovemaster"" on my Technics for about ten minutes after I got a tonearm rewire and couldn't wait to change things back. The better bass and overall clarity were just too big to ignore. The somewhat zingy nature of LOMC is tamed the farther up the cost scale you go. The Denon DL-103 can be had for as little as $148. You are going to need a bit of gain but there are a number of inexpensive transformer deals out there. IME the gains are worth the cost. I couldn't go back.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 06:11 pm »

Much of what you get out of a MC depends on the head amp. A good tone arm goes along way too. One of the first and worst arms I bought was the Magnepan Unipivot which wasn't exactly a cheap arm either.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 06:58 pm »

Larry/lcrim - It's good that it's here in AudioCentral...I think a lot of guys probably don't check our lonely Vinyl Circle. There is probably a lot of former vinyl-ista's that have views on teh subject.

Kevin Haskins - Ignorance is bliss (agreed); in the case of the Grado Green it is also pretty smart financially. I posted this elsewhere on AC after talking to Grado yesterday and you may not have seen it:

Quote from: TheChairGuy

Ha - I just called over to Grado.

I didn't get John Grado, but I think I was talking to John Chiapas...the long time (70+ year old) engineer there.

He said that in almost every instance if your equipment is good, the 1.5mv version will work as well as (and sound a bit better as DC resistance is lower) than the 4.0 model.

It was the most refreshingly honest phone call I've had in a while. NY'ers tend to be that way. He further said (and I quote nearly verbatim):

* At age 43, my hearing is on the downhill slide anyhow. If you're rich and don't care, trade up in the line. Otherwise, enjoy what you have.

* The Grado Green is already offering up 90% of the vinyl experience. It's up to me to decide how much the other 10% is worth.

* If I'm happy with the Green, then stick with it until the stylus falls off. If not fully happy, decide to pay more.

When I told him that I have the Green, and gravitate towards it more than any other over time, but that I do hear higher levels of resolution (ie., greater clarity) in other cartridges...but not the same wholeness as I do with Grados, he said:

*Then buy the Silver/Gold. With my hearing on a downhill at age 43, it's not gonna' matter much soon.

Never once did he advocate moving up to the Woodie series directly...either 1.5 or 4.0 output versions. I know it is only his opinion, but interestingly, he's the guy that helped Joe and now John Grado design all of them. Remember, Joe Grado (and probably this guy, too) were responsible for many of the early patents on moving coils - the now preferred choice of most audiophiles. So, it's a fairly STRONG and important opinion

He told me he traveled the country with Joe Grado playing music - Joe was an Opera singer and all of their cartridges re-produce music.

As I said - a most refreshing and charming phone call it was

rollo · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 08:08 pm »

Gentleman,
Just so you know what I am listening with.A Linn LP12 with all the upgrades except Lingo,Ittock 2 arm Valhalla power supply with a Micro Benz M2 MC.The phono stage is a Loesch & Weisner.
Thinking about a MM to try with Linn setup.

I posted this topic to see what Ya All think about the MM or MC difference [your preference] and why?

rollo

gooberdude · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 08:22 pm »

I'm tickled by the performance of the AT 440MLa, it sounds right to me.

Audio Technica sells a hi-end version, the 150LX it think, that might be interesting to try. I thought about buying it, but doubt my beginner set-up is good enough to warrant a nicer cartridge.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 08:34 pm »

I found MMs to sound rather lethargic compared to a good MC. Keep in mind I have no intimate experience with the "higher end" MM's so it's not fair to compare a $200 MM to $500 MC. My final years of vinyl were spent with a strain gauge. (A $5000 phono cartridge back in 1982!) To my knowledge Electro Research and Winn Labs were the only two companies that explored technology.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 08:35 pm »

Matt da' dude,

The 150mlx stylus fits the AT440...confirmed by AT long ago. I think it's the same stylus profile, but with the better boron construction. If memory serves me correctly - the 150MLX cartridge had mu-metal shielded coils and a lower inductance motor than the 440 series.

Tho I've never heard it, I think the 150MLX may be further up the evolutionary tree than just a hot rodded 440MLa

BobM · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 08:50 pm »

Charles,

You might want to give Charlie G a call. He's been playing with some MC's lately. I know he's tried a ZYX and recently got a Dynevector 20X, like mine, to compare against his Sonata.

Bob

WEEZ · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 08:53 pm »

When I first got into audio, I was way too poor to afford the extra step-up required for MC..or the cartridge(s) either, for that matter.

Thru the years I've used high output MC's (Dynavector) but never the low output type.

If my experience with Dynavector's high output versions is any indication of the 'sound' comparison between MC and MM; I'd describe the MC sound as more 'defined'. Images seemed a little crisper. If that isn't a uniform characteristic, or 'sound'...then I'm of no help with this whatsoever

WEEZ

macrojack · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 09:08 pm »

Wind Chaser - I spent the 80s using a Panasonic Strain Gauge Cartridge with a Rowland Research board that I still own. So there's another company who went that route.

As for MM vs. MC, I use a Denon DL-103 or a ZYX R-1000 Airy. Both are low output MC. In my experience with MM, I found that they were not as sensual (musical?) as a good MC. I think this distinction is really only important for reproduction of acoustic, unamplified music. For loud raucous boogie music and wailing electric guitars anything will do since that can't sound like anything but speakers anyway. In those situations the issue really boils down to flavor. Listen to the cheapest thing that will float your boat and don't worry about Absolute Sound. It's a figment of Harry's imagination and should be abandoned by anyone able to make his own decisions.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 09:13 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 20 Feb 2007, 09:08 pm

Wind Chaser - I spent the 80s using a Panasonic Strain Gauge Cartridge with a Rowland Research board that I still own. So there's another company who went that route.

Cool! How does it compare to the other cartridges you've tried?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 09:18 pm »

A rare breed, those Strain Gauges.....at least one company still makes them (starting at $6K

)

http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/sg.html

macrojack · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 09:47 pm »

Cool! How does it compare to the other cartridges you've tried?

I don't remember. I do recall that one reason it was found attractive was because it was way smooth. It didn't have the rising high end that was problematic with MC in those days.
I still have the board in a single rack space chassis but the power supply that ran the works was sold with my preamp long ago so I can't go back and try it now. Maybe if Vinnie ever gets caught up with his orders, I'll talk to him about a battery supply for it. That would probably be very cool.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 10:53 pm »

Weren't Micro Acoustics carts also "strain gauge" designs? Seems I remember they were unusual in some design aspect.