[James Romeyn]

This thread started in the ModWright circle; Kevin invited me to move it here, so I did:

I'd assume the HT bypass does nothing to the phase...Swapping the speaker leads is not going to make a difference...As long as phase is preserved across the frequency spectrum (50Hz is at the same time arrival as 20K) then it is completely inaudible...the moral of the story is to not worry about the phase inversion caused by the ModWright preamp...

Kevin
If your several rather concrete proclamations above are accurate, then apparently Dan Wright of ModWright is misleading readers by the very fact of mentioning in the owner's manual that the Modwright SWL 9.0 SE preamp inverts absolute polarity.  The mere fact of mentioning it ascribes some audible significance to it that you apparently state flat out does not exist.  Why else would Dan describe it & also describe a method for owners to compensate for it by inverting their speaker leads?   

Why do 70% believe they hear something you say doesn't exist? 
 

[JohnR]

Hi Jim, how's that website coming along?

[Midnite Mick]

I think your getting a little carried away here!

Mike

[Kevin Haskins]

I'd rather not bring other people like Dan into the discussion.   If you want their opinion, you can ask them but I won't read anything into either their intentions nor their motives.

In terms of people who believe and those who do not, that is easily explained.   If I put a switch on the front panel of any piece of audio gear, and then mention in the documentation that it may effect the sound, try it both ways and see.   Even if the switch was hooked to nothing I'd expect for some people to hear a difference.   We just don't have enough people, in a controlled situation where we can do a meaningful subjective test.

Also... if the result to the poll had come back with nobody hearing any difference would it change your opinion?   

I prefer to analyze a situation, look for the underlying causes and try to determine if people believe something valid or not.   

In the case of absolute phase I have yet to see a valid reason why there should be any difference.  We have already determined that the phase flips any number of times through the recording and playback process.

If we had a study where we took a meaningful sample of people, in a controlled groups and they could identify a difference in a statistically meaningful way I'd happily re-examine my belief.    But a poll of a dozen or so people on an audio forum where I don't even know what people are comparing is hardly what I'd call reliable data.

[James Romeyn]

I'd rather not bring other people like Dan into the discussion.   If you want their opinion, you can ask them but I won't read anything into either their intentions nor their motives.

That makes a lot of sense, point well taken.  His words speak for him, I should shut up & will.  Anyone who has the owner's manual can read the section I mentioned if interested.

In terms of people who believe and those who do not, that is easily explained.   If I put a switch on the front panel of any piece of audio gear, and then mention in the documentation that it may effect the sound, try it both ways and see.   Even if the switch was hooked to nothing I'd expect for some people to hear a difference.

If what you describe above was an accurate description of what was asked in the pole, it would be relevant.  But it's not, so it isn't.  It's an interesting statement on its own & I agree the placebo effect is real.  Yes the pole numbers are very low, but they are your constituents here at the forum.  You may notice that at least some posts are very enthusiastic about their yes position.  The main problem w/ your placebo effect being applied here, as I see it, is that it presumes listeners were pre-disposed to believe yes.  In fact, the very opposite may be true, that everyone who voted yes was predisposed to believe no.  In other words your argument could just as well disprove your position as support it.  It appears to presume they were predisposed to vote yes, but unless you know more about them personally than is disclosed publicly, you have absolutely no way of knowing their pre-disposition on the subject or even if one exists at all.  In fact, every single person who replied yes may in fact have believed till they did the test that their answer would be no.  So it's all moot.  You have no way of knowing unless you did a seperate pole asking them to describe their preconceived notion, if any existed whatsoever.     

We just don't have enough people, in a controlled situation where we can do a meaningful subjective test.

I agree the number is low.  It's more meaningful than people at a bus stop. These are generally audio nuts.  I hope more vote.  It's been less than one day.  Readers can decide when the numbers are significant.  They don't need us to decide for them.   

Also... if the result to the poll had come back with nobody hearing any difference would it change your opinion?   

I'm just really thinking there are enough variables here to talk about what's in front of us, & not pure hypotheticals that don't exist.  In your case, you supply reasons, purely theoretical, why people who hear something (or so they say) with their own ears, doesn't exist.  In fact, considering the pole numbers, the opposite question is for you to answer: Considering the pole results so far, are you considering changing your opinion?  BTW, your quotes above are far more removed from the realm of "opinion" than mine.  I agree all I'm sharing is an opinion.   

I prefer to analyze a situation, look for the underlying causes and try to determine if people believe something valid or not.   

We've come full circle.  You listed scientific theories why the phenomena doesn't exist.  One might surmise you in fact are predisposed to ignore a difference that exists. 

In the case of absolute phase I have yet to see a valid reason why there should be any difference.  We have already determined that the phase flips any number of times through the recording and playback process.

See pole results.  I'm not saying anyone knows which polarity is original.  (I'd like you to supply a better explanation as to why a mic output is inverted vs. the original event).  You have supplied absolutely no support for your position that the signal's polarity is ignored in the recording chain other than your saying so, which I personally have experienced not to be the case at The Record Plant in Sausalito & Different Fur Studios in SF. 

If we had a study where we took a meaningful sample of people, in a controlled groups and they could identify a difference in a statistically meaningful way I'd happily re-examine my belief.    But a poll of a dozen or so people on an audio forum where I don't even know what people are comparing is hardly what I'd call reliable data.

The CD's mentioned (including one I own myself) have the same exact cut in two polarities.  That's so simple it can't be any simpler.  The inversion is in the digital domain.  That & the speaker leads are the two best places to invert, having the least variables.  Again, these aren't normal people walking down the street.  Besides, one might surmise as long as you have your theoretical agenda you have nothing to examine regardless how big the opposing data.  All you need to do is produce another theory invalidating the results. 

Would you describe what's a good sampling number?  What's better than the same identical cuts in two versions, one inverted from the other in the digital domain?

Thanks for sharing your position for everyone to examine & make up their own mind. 

[Kevin Haskins]

I'd rather not bring other people like Dan into the discussion.   If you want their opinion, you can ask them but I won't read anything into either their intentions nor their motives.

That makes a lot of sense, point well taken.  His words speak for him, I should shut up & will.  Anyone who has the owner's manual can read the section I mentioned if interested.

In terms of people who believe and those who do not, that is easily explained.   If I put a switch on the front panel of any piece of audio gear, and then mention in the documentation that it may effect the sound, try it both ways and see.   Even if the switch was hooked to nothing I'd expect for some people to hear a difference.

If what you describe above was an accurate description of what was asked in the pole, it would be relevant.  But it's not, so it isn't.  It's an interesting statement on its own & I agree the placebo effect is real.  Yes the pole numbers are very low, but they are your constituents here at the forum.  You may notice that at least some posts are very enthusiastic about their yes position.  The main problem w/ your placebo effect being applied here, as I see it, is that it presumes listeners were pre-disposed to believe yes.  In fact, the very opposite may be true, that everyone who voted yes was predisposed to believe no.  In other words your argument could just as well disprove your position as support it.  It appears to presume they were predisposed to vote yes, but unless you know more about them personally than is disclosed publicly, you have absolutely no way of knowing their pre-disposition on the subject or even if one exists at all.  In fact, every single person who replied yes may in fact have believed till they did the test that their answer would be no.  So it's all moot.  You have no way of knowing unless you did a seperate pole asking them to describe their preconceived notion, if any existed whatsoever.     

We just don't have enough people, in a controlled situation where we can do a meaningful subjective test.

I agree the number is low.  It's more meaningful than people at a bus stop. These are generally audio nuts.  I hope more vote.  It's been less than one day.  Readers can decide when the numbers are significant.  They don't need us to decide for them.   

Also... if the result to the poll had come back with nobody hearing any difference would it change your opinion?   

I'm just really thinking there are enough variables here to talk about what's in front of us, & not pure hypotheticals that don't exist.  In your case, you supply reasons, purely theoretical, why people who hear something (or so they say) with their own ears, doesn't exist.  In fact, considering the pole numbers, the opposite question is for you to answer: Considering the pole results so far, are you considering changing your opinion?  BTW, your quotes above are far more removed from the realm of "opinion" than mine.  I agree all I'm sharing is an opinion.   

I prefer to analyze a situation, look for the underlying causes and try to determine if people believe something valid or not.   

We've come full circle.  You listed scientific theories why the phenomena doesn't exist.  One might surmise you in fact are predisposed to ignore a difference that exists. 

In the case of absolute phase I have yet to see a valid reason why there should be any difference.  We have already determined that the phase flips any number of times through the recording and playback process.

See pole results.  I'm not saying anyone knows which polarity is original.  (I'd like you to supply a better explanation as to why a mic output is inverted vs. the original event).  You have supplied absolutely no support for your position that the signal's polarity is ignored in the recording chain other than your saying so, which I personally have experienced not to be the case at The Record Plant in Sausalito & Different Fur Studios in SF. 

If we had a study where we took a meaningful sample of people, in a controlled groups and they could identify a difference in a statistically meaningful way I'd happily re-examine my belief.    But a poll of a dozen or so people on an audio forum where I don't even know what people are comparing is hardly what I'd call reliable data.

The CD's mentioned (including one I own myself) have the same exact cut in two polarities.  That's so simple it can't be any simpler.  The inversion is in the digital domain.  That & the speaker leads are the two best places to invert, having the least variables.  Again, these aren't normal people walking down the street.  Besides, one might surmise as long as you have your theoretical agenda you have nothing to examine regardless how big the opposing data.  All you need to do is produce another theory invalidating the results. 

Would you describe what's a good sampling number?  What's better than the same identical cuts in two versions, one inverted from the other in the digital domain?

Thanks for sharing your position for everyone to examine & make up their own mind. 

I'd just say lets agree to disagree.   

I wouldn't make up my mind one way or another on ANY subject based upon a poll of ten or twelve people.   

In general, the topic of subjective impressions and their validity or not, is a subject that has been exhaustively discussed throughout the forum.   I'm sceptical of things that have zero technical basis and for which the only subjective data we can get is not performed with some kind of scientifically valid method.   

In terms of changing my mind I'd certainly change my position and publically state it if I could be showed something other than what amounts to totally circumstantial evidence.    The metric which I'd use is some sort of study, published preferably for peer review that did a good valid group study.   Harmon, JBL and some of the other big dogs have sponsored such studies to determine what things are and are not audible.    I consider that type of work good data.   I consider heresay, personal testimonies and polls on audio forums to be EXTREMELY unreliable data.