[WerTicus]

Thanks Occam, yeah I didnt actually mention that I had the amp before... I dont know that i know enough to say if its polished turd, but if it is then its a pretty shiny one.


couple questions about your advice:

2: C5 dosnt need to be the same capacitance? (just checking you didnt make a typo )

Im always careful to watch the voltage of caps....

3: Yeah i have found it a bit tricky to get the right values of certain types of caps here, especially since i live in PERTH, and perth is the most isolated places in an isolated place!  I can get Audyn KPSN Metal Foil/Polypropylene 250v Tolerance + 2%... seem to be the 'best' ones around here... or i can get metalised ones.

4: no worries!
5: no worries!

6: Ill have to look around - but obviously it must be a polar type cap here... can you tell me why that is in the interest of learning?

7: the input coupling cap i would like to replace, dont fear political reasons not to comment! I will replace it with a foil polypropylene KPSN one if thats not a bad idea?
8: bypass caps being upgraded... easy!

Thanks for your advice occam, very much appreciated!

-N

[Occam]

WertTcus,

Sorry about the confusion....
C5 is marked as a 10nf cap, which is the same as a 10,000pf cap, or a .01uf cap. which happens to be the largest capacitance available for these inexpensive, but very excellent caps -
http://www.rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/browse/Module.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1215246499.1060526240@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccdadcjdhdimiicfngcfkmdgkldfhn.0&cacheID=ukie&3237979090=3237979090&catoid=-92650591

As its function is to provide an AC signal path for the current current mirror, a larger value probably wouldn't hurt, but such a larger value of an equivalent functional quality would be far more expensive.

The Audyn foil caps are highly spoken of by many, though I've no experience with them.

[WerTicus]

That link isnt useable for me - session expired or some such crap... just redirects to the front page.....

but as i have esp ill say your talking about the 160Vdc Working (40Vac) FSC Series Polystyrene Capacitors?

Will they ship two of them to australia?   I havnt even seen a place i can get polystyrene's in aus yet.  just polypropelene's and mylars and bi polars. and ceramics

ohh i can get 630v mylars, would that be better quality wise than just 100v jobbies?

Ill try to source some polystyrene's but if i can the next best thing would be polyprop's i understand?  (much more costly though!)

[Occam]

WerTicus,

Those 160v polystyrenes should do the trick. I'd originally attempted to provide a link to the substantially less expensive 50v version. It was also radial, and would have been easier to fit, but upon actually looking at the schematic, the 53v dc accross C5 would call for a cap rated higher than 50v....

With regards to bipolar electrolytics, I've no personal experience with them in situaltions where the polarity of the biasing voltage is known (it is known even where used at the feedback node shunt, as the input uses a bipolar transistor long tailed pair, and its bypassed with that .1uf for good measure). According to some others,the unpolarized  BG N type electrolytics are the 'ultimate' whether in power supply of signal application. I'll leave that to someone with more direct experience. On a more practical level, bi-(non) polar electolytics are substantially larger than polarized lytics, and it might be impractical to shoehorn them in. If you were to replace the 100 and 47uf PS local decoupling caps with BGs (I'm a fiscal agnostic on the BG issue), their larger size, even for their Standard versions, might be accomodated by removing their .1uf local bypass MKTs, and some with actual experience advocate not bypassing BGs.

"ohh i can get 630v mylars, would that be better quality wise than just 100v jobbies?"

It is generally acknowledged that among audiophile polyprops, higher voltage rating within the same family, provide better sonics even if that higher voltage is not required. Perhaps someone could oppine as to whether this holds true for polyester caps.

As an FYI , RS has a local Australian operation -
http://www.rs-components.com.au/

as well as a GB based export operation -
http://www.rs-export.com/

[WerTicus]

Oh awesome and free delivery too bad their website's a bucket of shit - but i have ordered their catalogue...

Thanks for all your help Occam ill let ya know how it goes!
-N

[rcrump]

I have had good luck using Nichicon Muse KZ series bypassed by Reliable Capacitor RTs in the high current supply....Tried some of the fancy Elnas and Black Gates and liked the Muse better in our designs....Best part is they are quite a bit less money and felt they matched well with the Rel bypass caps....

[DVV]

I have had good luck using Nichicon Muse KZ series bypassed by Reliable Capacitor RTs in the high current supply....Tried some of the fancy Elnas and Black Gates and liked the Muse better in our designs....Best part is they are quite a bit less money and felt they matched well with the Rel bypass caps....

Trouble is, EVERYTHING changes when you start using a decent line filter. In that case, most of the junk riding the mains never even gets to the power supply, which off-loads large capacitors, resulting in deeper, better controlled and more believable bass.

Then you discover which small caps are really the best for bypassing.

Just so I'm not misunderstood - I'm not complaining, I am enjoying the opportunity, nay, the challenge to experiment again.

Cheers,
DVV

[WerTicus]

hehehe, yes line filters... i'm looking at getting a pure sine wave converter that takes the ac from the wall and rebuilds it to a new sine wave 180 degrees to the original... ie a ups.

i dont know if this is a good idea though.

[DVV]

hehehe, yes line filters... i'm looking at getting a pure sine wave converter that takes the ac from the wall and rebuilds it to a new sine wave 180 degrees to the original... ie a ups.

i dont know if this is a good idea though.

The problems start when the unit has to create a sine wave. This is typically done digitally, and using rather poor quality CPUs. Thus, the created 50/60 Hz sine wave is a poor approximation of a sine wave (due to digital notches), and tend to kill sound, or at least, such is my limited experience.

I prefer classic filtering - if done well, it's the least of all evils.

Cheers,
DVV

[WerTicus]

are you sure its not a square wave ups... the cheaper ones produce squarewaves... but the ones costing over a grand and up say 'pure sine wave'

hrmmmmmmm    classic filtering........  (no i dunno what im going to do)

[Occam]

WerTicus-

By no means do I wish to dissuade you on your quest for the perfect sine wave -
http://www.tinaja.com/magsn01.asp

but I would argue that a substantial improvement in your AC lines could be provided by the simple expediency of proper application of capacitors (it is, after all, the subject of this thread). A properly rated capacitor accross your line-neutral, and additional capacitance from line-gorund and/or neutral-ground, will achieve much of what is provided by costly power conditioners. (If you're not concerned with wiring codes), you can simply wire them into the back of you power outlets, or more rationally, incorporate them into you amps chassis (and add appropriate MOVs at your discretion). I think the Wima MP3X2, made specifically for this purpose, are the cat's pajamas. Then again, others oppine that 2 paralelled .47uf 600v Auricaps accross the line-neutral are the bestest. Its all a question of what incremental benefit is derived for each incremental cost.

http://www.magnan.com/column.shtml#conditioners

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/surge.htm

Regards,
Occam the Cheap SOB

[WerTicus]

hrmmm very interesting.... looks like the 'next' upgrade....

yes i have about 4 in line now
not enough monies though!

please send monies!



-werticus

[DVV]

WerTicus-

By no means do I wish to dissuade you on your quest for the perfect sine wave -
http://www.tinaja.com/magsn01.asp

but I would argue that a substantial improvement in your AC lines could be provided by the simple expediency of proper application of capacitors (it is, after all, the subject of this thread). A properly rated capacitor accross your line-neutral, and additional capacitance from line-gorund and/or neutral-ground, will achieve much of what is provided by costly power conditioners. ...

Ah, if it were only that simple ...

You might throw in a prayer or two for improved effects.

Cheers,
DVV

[Occam]

Ah, if it were only that simple ...

You might throw in a prayer or two for improved effects.

Cheers,
DVV

Dejan,

Your response truly puzzles me. Granted, Dezorel's "fully balanced, floating" coditioners that you so dearly love, or PS Audio's Ultimate Outlet,  ridiculously described as a 'balun', e.g. a filter based upon a CMC with flanking capacitors, is certainly an excellent approach to removing the crap that polutes our mains. And it is certainly a way to go if one is concerned about adding to ground noise (though not  as well  as two transformers with secondaries back to back and a bog honk'n capacitor betwixt and between).

But given Werticus' postings, do you really think he is inclined to spend the $500USD for the DeZorel or any commercial product? (Dunno the cost in the Land Down Under, or even if its available there), for a single leg of isolation and filtration?
My responses to Werticus have alway been addressed to his specific, admitted finances, i.e. less than $10Aus/pop. And the maximum bang for the buck for line filtering is to let X2 capacitors do what they do so well, including the conversion of differential noise to common mode noise, letting the magnetics (whether the CMCs of the DeZorels, or the primary winding of the component's power supply) . And given your excellent writing on your website, as well as on TNT's tweeks, I would think you could help Werticus extend that to capacitively bridging the secondary(s) of his component's transformers.

The cost of 'cheap 'n easy' filtering is less than $10Aus per mains circuit, just put a properly rated 1uf (or thereabouts) cap accross the line on the IEC inlet on one component on each mains circuit used for audio (or as many circuits as one desires).  I think that  .47uf (anything more might trip the GFI required in new construction in many countries, as well as potentially causing ground loops) from line to ground and another from neutral to ground, will provide incremental benefits that outweigh the minimal leakage and polution to the ground. But if the thought of doing so puts one's knickers in a twist, just use the line to neutral cap(s), and sleep easy... As the cost is rather minimal, trying it out can be viewed as educational, even if wastes that "prayer or two for improved effects "

I'm certainly not disputing that the DeZorel approach isn't prefferable in an absolute sense. But the cost of entry, for many, is quite high. Given the technology and limited market, I don't dispute its value. But frankly, it ain't rocket science.

My suggestions do not address what is the best, but what can be done inexpensively and provides substantial return on investment. Actually, it is that simple.

[WerTicus]

Yeah so far all my hi fi has been bang for your buck
i have spend $2000 aust so far and its already better than anything you can buy in the shops

muahahahaahahahha

bang for the buck is so much fun!, cause my stereo sounds better when i can eat too!

I spend months and months (at least sometimes more time cause i cant afford whatever) researching every upgrade and so far i havnt made a 'bad' choice....

My first stereo cost me $100... it was good for that price.... very good, and I sold it for a profit to some impressionable 14 yr old... ahhh same age as me when I bought it.... the way of the audiophile starts for another young grasshopper.  

[Ears]

According to a couple of pro modders, the Jensen is even better than the Blackgate when used on an amp or cd player ps.
The cost on these is 50.00 for any size which makes the larger sizes a bargain when compared to Blackgates

[DVV]

Dejan,

Your response truly puzzles me. Granted, Dezorel's "fully balanced, floating" coditioners that you so dearly love, or PS Audio's Ultimate Outlet,  ridiculously described as a 'balun', e.g. a filter based upon a CMC with flanking capacitors, is certainly an excellent approach to removing the crap that polutes our mains. And it is certainly a way to go if one is concerned about adding to ground noise (though not  as well  as two transformers with secondaries back to back and a bog honk'n capacitor b ...

I think we have managed to bypass each other on the road to there.

I do not dispute your approach. I do not claim it is not valid, nor that it will produce results. I am not promoting DFeZorel, despite my high regard for their products, which I demonstrate by purchasing their products (I currently own 5 filters of theirs, one biggie for my audio, 4 small ones for the rest of the apartment). Obviously, this is an approach which does cost considerable money, although being a local, I naturally pay less than you guys are asked to simply because I can buy it from them direct, no shipping costs, etc.

What I was referring to was that in my experience, your approach will costs far less, but will also produce far less results. In all honesty, I would not dare to make any claims which approach is better in terms of value for money, which is the ultimate argument for me, always, anywhere.

The problem is that once I put their filters on line, I got what I never had before with any other approach, or any other product. As such, this approach is the best one I can think of, while admitting it does cost quite a bit of money, even (or especially) by local standards. Thus, I have been hooked, and I know it.

Now, let's be honest - I think it's safe to say that once most of us have been given a say Mercedes-Benz to ride in for two years, we wouldn't be happy at all to hear a Daewoo (purposely chosen, I own one) driver expound the virtues of that car. We know it'll go, we know it costs one third of that MB, but unless forced, I don't think any one of us would give up the Merc. Right?

THAT was what I meant. But I repeat - your approach will work and will produce results and does cost incomparably less than a pile of line filters.

Cheers,
DVV

[Occam]

Dejan,

Your points are well taken. Improvements over 'bog stock' are generally easy and inexpensive, if you know what you are doing. But taking your system, whether power, amplification, or source to the next level become increasingly difficult and expensive..

[DVV]

Dejan,

Your points are well taken. Improvements over 'bog stock' are generally easy and inexpensive, if you know what you are doing. But taking your system, whether power, amplification, or source to the next level become increasingly difficult and expensive..

"...know what you are doing ...". Well, that's the whole trick, isn't it?

You know, in my view, the main issue here is realizing you have a need to filter your line. As I'm sure you know, most people don't realize that simple truth, just as they don't realize that this need grwos exponentially over time. Just look at what we have today connecetd to our mains lines, as compared to just 10 or 20 years ago. And it's all but blowing up in our faces.

But so it was with many other things. 30 years ago, when I went hunting for my first higher quality speaker cable, most of my audio friends thought I had finally come unstuck all the way. Today, they own cables I can't afford to even think about, much less actually buy.

In 1983, I said the CD would all but kill the gramophone and was called mad- but just count the number of companies making turntables today, then look at their prices.

In 1984, I bought my first IBM PC and commented that now was GREAT time to buy stock in paper mills. I was called a fool, because we would have a paperless office. No kidding? When you can easily type out anything you want - do you think it's a coincidence that paper shredders appeared now, with the digital revolution under way? Now look at paper mill stocks and compare them with 1983 - and weep.

In 1986, I wrote and published that we were headed for a multiple media revolution, and was called a dreamer. Today, multimedia is old hat.

In 1988, I wrote and published that by about 2010, our worst audiophile nightmare would come true - our beloved audio, ALL of it, would be just one VLSI (Very Large Scale IC) in a PC. We have 7 years yet to go, but the way it's rolling along, I don't think I'll be much off mark, if at all.

And so forth. That's the way the world turns. But if fellow audiophiles realize that they can improve their experiences by filtering what needed to be filtered 40 years ago, then we are on a good road to somewhere.

Cheers,
DVV

[_scotty_]

According to a couple of pro modders, the Jensen is even better than the Blackgate when used on an amp or cd player ps.
The cost on these is 50.00 for any size which makes the larger sizes a bargain when compared to Blackgates

Dead right Ears,Every component I own has them used where possible,BlackGates every where else.The Jensen 4pole cap was developed over 20years ago by Sprague for very high frequency applications.The cap has a very low impedance at 1mHz and every where else.Only a Blackgate is a substitute and it isn't as good.Every digital amp
made should have caps with this design used in their power supplies or something equivalent  to them in high frequency impedance charcteristics.
Caps with these very low high frequency impedance qualities help block the flow of noise in either direction from the mains in or from the circuit out.
A nice added bonus.A friend of mine imported extra Jensen caps that are not already spoken for. His phone number is 1-541-579-1374email is
fleeceba@netscape .net.These are first come first served.
spoken for