[TONEPUB]

We are always investigating more analog to review.

Curious to your thoughts on a great table under a thousand
bucks, preferrably in the 500-1000 range.  We all know about
the Rega P2/P3, and TONE is actually getting a Technics SL-1200
seeing there has been so much buzz about direct drive lately.

However, we'd be very interested on your thoughts for this
category.

Thanks in advance!

[WEEZ]

SOTA Moonbeam?

[duggie]

if i were going to buy new, i would get a kabusa-modded technics sl1200, but opt for the origin-live arm board w/origin-live modded rb250.  but, if i were going to buy whatever i wanted, i would get a used empire 298 & mount an ol-rb250 arm to it.   aa

link to cool site showing what can be done w/the empire decks.  even bone-stock, tho, they are awesome.

http://cognitivevent.com/av_empire.html

[TONEPUB]

Thanks!  I've been hearing a lot about the Empire tables!
I wanted to get my hands on a KAB 1200, but they have
no interest in working with us.

However, we are going to investigate a stock SL-1200...

Stay tuned for that.

We also have five great phono stages coming that are around 12-1500.

We also have about four or five phono stages in the 400-600 range
too, but a little later in the summer....

[TheChairGuy]

lcrim & Psychicanimal - as you guys are both pretty close to Kevin A Barrett (aka KAB), maybe you could persuade him to particpate here?

Kevin is kinda' funny that way....but these guys might be able to talk him into it

[TONEPUB]

Well, I had a lot of optimism for what he's doing and considering
that TONE has never bashed anyone's products, we were very anxious
to see what he had to offer.

The door is always open.

My goal is really to help you guys find something you like a price
that makes sense for you.  I have four tables that I love and they
all do different things.  I'd have ten turntables if I had the room!!

Always excited to see something new!

[Wayner]

duggie, nice dig! Damn, that Empire is awesome!!!!!!!

W 

[Wayner]

I am thinking about the Thorens TD-295 at $899 with some dope cart in it (that they won't take off). This is one of my 2 choices right now. The other is the MMF-5 SE, which is the same price but has a different dope cartridge in it.

It is not going to be my main TT but wanted something from this decade.

W 

[duggie]

I am thinking about the Thorens TD-295 at $899 with some dope cart in it (that they won't take off). This is one of my 2 choices right now. The other is the MMF-5 SE, which is the same price but has a different dope cartridge in it.

It is not going to be my main TT but wanted something from this decade.

W 

hi w,

those are certainly nice decks, but, for the money, i would choose either one of my two choices over those, w/o thinking twice...

ymmv,

doug s.

[gooberdude]

I really like the sound & performance of my simple unsuspended 'table - it had to tweaked with some  choice aftermarket products to sound right though.  the tone, clarity, precision, drive & bass are much improved over stock.   Compared to all the hi-end 'tables i've listened to (all 6 of them!), it performs quite well.

currently, i'd go for a Pro-Ject Expression II w/ Mapleshade Ultimate Triplepoints, a 3" thick air dried Timbernation maple platform + Isoblocks.  Total cost about $800 retail.  The Speed Box MKII and an AT 440MLa cartridge would complete the package for $1000.  cough up $ for the Marigo VTS tonearm dot kit & Herbie's Way Excellent mat, and you're set until the urge for a major upgrade takes hold.

for the uninitiated or budget buyer, a system like this will reveal a wild world of details buried in LP recordings.

it looks pretty freaky though...

[lcrim]

If the parameter under discussion is TT/tonearm combination only, no cartridge, no cables, no phono section-the only reasonable choice is the KAB modded Technics SL-1200.  I am a suspect witness in that I own and enjoy just such a setup and I call Kevin Barrett, the proprietor, a friend.  However, I would not ever tell Kevin how to manage his business.  If he hasn't already been made aware of the invitation, I will pass it on. 
BTW, there are several recent reviews  that compare the KAB modded Technics to some competitors at the price point and it is clear that the reviewers had their questions answered.  It wouldn't be proper for me to link those reviews here as this board is the province of another review site. 
Kevin and his mods really don't require my support, they are a proven commodity. However, as I was recently made aware of there still appears to be a holdover apprehension re: what was until recently regarded as basically "only a DJ machine."  I'm only happy that those DJ sales kept this component in production long enough for me to stumble into it and to meet one of the really good guys in the audio business.

[TONEPUB]

Unfortunately, we have had no luck with KAB.

While I would never go as far to say that "there is only one obvious choice"
at any given price point, It is something I have heard a lot of great things
about and would love to investigate further.

However, I also understand from a mfrs standpoint that once they have
had a few good reviews, the LAST thing they need is another reviewer
giving them a bad review.

Just comparing the lower end Rega tables to the stock SL-1200, I am
seeing a pretty major difference between them.  We will have a comparison
on the TONE website in a couple of weeks when I am finished.

It's been a lot of fun listening to an SL1200 again, it certainly brings back
memories!   And as I spend more time with it, I can definitely see who
I would recommend one to and who I would not...

Its all about finding the match for your system...

[WEEZ]

Jeff, now THERE'S a tease, if I ever read one!! Looking forward to reading you report...

WEEZ

[Danny Kaey]

I still hold to my original point: the 1200 series is far, far better then most "audiophiles" give it credit for.  It's almost a closet "Technics" syndrome that's prevelant in the industry...

A friend has a 1200 w/ Kontrapunkt B and it sounds spectacular, surpassing many 'tables below and well above it's price point.

[vinyl anachronist]

I still hold to my original point: the 1200 series is far, far better then most "audiophiles" give it credit for.  It's almost a closet "Technics" syndrome that's prevelant in the industry...

A friend has a 1200 w/ Kontrapunkt B and it sounds spectacular, surpassing many 'tables below and well above it's price point.

And it has the original tonearm?

[TheChairGuy]

vinyl anachronist,

I think way too much foo-foo is made about the inherent shortcomings of Technics 1200 arms.  It is machined beautifully and Technics (Matshushita) even gives significant information on their bearing for it.  I don't know of any high-end foofie arm makers that do that.  There are many things that make up a great arm, but let's face facts, bearing friction is likely the most important.  Less friction allows for more accurate tracking/tracing and less tracking distortion.

The Technics SL-1200 tonearm is specified to have a bearing finish of ± 0.5 microns. This and the extra closeness of pivot center to the bearings results in a minimal friction of 7 milligrams. It is important to note that the1200 arm was designed at a time when tracking forces were pushing the 0.75 gram range.

The Technics arm is probably most deficient in it's use of basic copper wiring - something now addressed in the SL-1210M5G and M5GLD (which use OFC wiring from headshell thru leads).  With incredibly low level signals like those of a cartridge output (.18 to 5-6mv or so - hundreds of times less voltage than CDP's, tuners and other line level sources) the purity of copper seems to really matter.  The slight/feeble signals need to travel thru 4' feet of wire with as little crystal and/or oxidative barriers as possible to arrive unscathed at your phono preamp for signal boosting and equalization.

I think it's highly capable arm - I'm not sure what level of arm you must buy aftermarket to best it - but it likely to not be a trivial amount.  Remember, these arms are made for DJ's where tracking under less-than-ideal surroundings is imperative and they have had 30 years to amortize the original tooling of these arms over hundreds of thousands of arms sold.  A small maker such as Rega or SME sell TT's or arms measured in the hundreds or couple thousands yearly - Technics math starts at 10,000 pcs yearly.  That economy of scale allows them to make a high-quality arm at the fraction of the cost other high-end makers can do it for.   

[Danny Kaey]

yes indeed.

 

I still hold to my original point: the 1200 series is far, far better then most "audiophiles" give it credit for.  It's almost a closet "Technics" syndrome that's prevelant in the industry...

A friend has a 1200 w/ Kontrapunkt B and it sounds spectacular, surpassing many 'tables below and well above it's price point.

And it has the original tonearm?

[vinyl anachronist]

It's just that there seems to be no consensus about the what makes the 1200 good/bad.  I've heard at least two engineers claim that it's the arm, and not the drive system, that lets the whole design down.  I've had many people tell me that the secret in bringing the 1200 up to the performance standards of decent belt-drive 'tables is using something like a Rega RB300 or an old SME.  And then there are others that say the arm is based upon the design of the arm used on the SP-10, which is one of the finest arms in the world.

[vinyl anachronist]

yes indeed.

 

I still hold to my original point: the 1200 series is far, far better then most "audiophiles" give it credit for.  It's almost a closet "Technics" syndrome that's prevelant in the industry...

A friend has a 1200 w/ Kontrapunkt B and it sounds spectacular, surpassing many 'tables below and well above it's price point.

And it has the original tonearm?

Someone over on the Steve Hoffman forum boasted just yesterday about their SL-1200/Kontrapunkt B combo.  Probably the same guy?

[Psychicanimal]

lcrim & Psychicanimal - as you guys are both pretty close to Kevin A Barrett (aka KAB), maybe you could persuade him to particpate here?

Kevin is kinda' funny that way....but these guys might be able to talk him into it

Like Larry, I won't tell Kevin how to run his kiosk.  He's very strict in his No KAB posting in the forums policy and in some other ways--I can see why he's like that and it's a smart move, if you ask me.  You call him, he helps you, he won't push sales and then says goodbye.

It's just that there seems to be no consensus about the what makes the 1200 good/bad.  I've heard at least two engineers claim that it's the arm, and not the drive system, that lets the whole design down.  I've had many people tell me that the secret in bringing the 1200 up to the performance standards of decent belt-drive 'tables is using something like a Rega RB300 or an old SME.  And then there are others that say the arm is based upon the design of the arm used on the SP-10, which is one of the finest arms in the world.

There is consensus among those who are good 1200 modders, if you do a search on Audiogon and the Asylum.  Yes, there is.  A good modder will look at a piece of gear and look at its shortcomings, evaluate and prioritize them.

The arm is excellent, the tonearm wiring sucks.  Yes, it is based on the EPA tonearms ( damped counterweight, too! ) and with the damper it kicks some serious butt.  One guy went and installed a Rega 600 and went back to stock.

What is a 'decent belt drive' ? 

So the priorities are the tonearm fluid damper and the outboard power supply.  Next are the cables and the strobe disabler.  Then there're other very inexpensive tricks that can be done if one understands how TTs work......our little secrets. 

Once done, the Creature on Steroids is up there @ the $5K performance level.

***