[Steve Eddy]

"Unpolished truth", huh?  In an area that's HIGHLY subjective, 'truth' has no meaning--what's true for one is not for the next person.  So what's 'the truth' when discussing speaker and IC cables for music-reproduction systems?  If I can hear a difference between 2 cables and ol'-what's-'is-name cannot, I believe he's being HIGHLY arrogant and presumptuous to be spouting the it-all-sounds-the-same mantra the measurists love.

Ok, but how is that fundamentally any different from the "everything makes a difference" mantra the er, "non-measurists" love? Those who insist that if one doesn't perceive a difference there must ipso facto be something wrong with the person listening, their system, or both.

se

[Steve Eddy]

Take a look at those highly polished switching boxes used in the testing

Heheh. Yeah, he could have used something that doesn't look like it'd been sitting in some dank warehouse for 30 years.

I'll tell you though, those simple little screw terminals (particularly the ones mounted on phenolic board) sound damn nice if you can find the good ones made out of brass instead of steel.

se

[Daygloworange]

Y'know, I looked at those boxes and thought for sure some EE would jump in an tell us how using a rig like that would be a flawed comparison.

I've read a lot of places, and talked to a number of people that say that switching devices are very problematic when both components being A/B'd are tied to it.

Cheers

[JohninCR]

"Unpolished truth", huh?  In an area that's HIGHLY subjective, 'truth' has no meaning--what's true for one is not for the next person.  So what's 'the truth' when discussing speaker and IC cables for music-reproduction systems?  If I can hear a difference between 2 cables and ol'-what's-'is-name cannot, I believe he's being HIGHLY arrogant and presumptuous to be spouting the it-all-sounds-the-same mantra the measurists love.

Oh well...those who can hear differences buy the cable they love, and those who can't, buy cable that's inexpensive.  If we could stop this pontificating-the-'truth' crap, all of us would get along better.

There is a truth, either cables make an audible difference or they don't, other than differences caused by measureable characteristics of the cables.

[TomW16]

There is a truth, either cables make an audible difference or they don't, other than differences caused by measureable characteristics of the cables.

I believe that Bryston's web site has a link to Jim Hayward's insights into cable differences.  To greatly oversimplify and summarize his conclusions, cables can make an audible difference but it is the components' impedances that are the important factors and how they interact with the cables.

Cheers,
Tom

[Phil A]

Gee, feeling defensive?  Let me guess, you dropped a grand for cables and interconnects.   Try not to get your skirt / panties in a twist.  I posted the address just for people's information,  and they can use it however they want.   For me,  having my friend over for beers while comparing notes isn't my idea of a productive way for cutting through all the b.s. marketing that's floating around these days,  ESPECIALLY for cables and interconnects.   And yeah, he might be an old fart,  but he's a smart old fart. 

Not at all - I make my own stuff and have not bought 'boutique' cables for years.  I have done DBT tests with interconnects many times in an old set-up with 100% differences noted by engineering types (on digital cables) who believed there can be no differences (it was definitely amusing they excuses they tried to come up with to convince the themselves they did not hear what they heard).  The bottom line is that a closed mind is a closed mind.  I could care less whether people use coat hangers.  I get a real charge of how people with no real world experience somehow feel the need to convince others of their preferences.  I have friends who are not audiophiles and have stuff made by Bose and I am happy to help them.  If they enjoy their system that is the bottom line.

[Steve Eddy]

Y'know, I looked at those boxes and thought for sure some EE would jump in an tell us how using a rig like that would be a flawed comparison.

I've read a lot of places, and talked to a number of people that say that switching devices are very problematic when both components being A/B'd are tied to it.

Yes, there have been some valid criticisms of switching methods. Whether or not the switching methods are preventing actual audible differences from being discerned is another matter.

Though to hear some people talk of such "obvious" "night and day" differences, you'd think it wouldn't matter even if you were doing the switching with one of these. 



se

[Steve Eddy]

There is a truth, either cables make an audible difference or they don't, other than differences caused by measureable characteristics of the cables.

Quite so.

se

[Steve Eddy]

I have done DBT tests with interconnects many times in an old set-up with 100% differences noted by engineering types (on digital cables) who believed there can be no differences (it was definitely amusing they excuses they tried to come up with to convince the themselves they did not hear what they heard).

I believe there's still a standing offer totaling several thousand dollars by a few folks over on one of the rec.audio newsgroups for anyone who can demonstrate actual audible differences under proper double blind conditions (and where there are no measurable differences above known thresholds).

It would be nice to see someone finally collect it and put this debate to rest.

se

[acresm22]

I for one found the Bryston thing to be an interesting read….but then I am somewheat of a cable skeptic ; )  My skepticism is based on numerous experiences I’ve had over the years with audiophile friends and retailers, as well as on a number of cable reviews and shootouts I’ve read over the years. I’ll recount just a few of them here, to hopefully spark some (friendly) discussion:

Back in 1997 I wanted to upgrade my speaker cables and ICs. I owned an Aragon amp and Sonus Faber Concertos at the time. The local retailer, who was also a friend, dropped by one evening with several speaker cables to audition. These included Goertz MI2, Goertz MI1, Audioquest Crystal, and some Transparent (can’t recall the model, but, if memory serves, the 8 ft pair retailed for under $500). We listened to all extensively that evening, switching back and forth, and even threw in a pair of cheap monster that was 10 years old at that time. Try as I might, I couldn’t hear much, if any, difference, and any perceived preference I felt at a given moment just didn’t hold up with more listening and more swapping. The retailer, however, was waxing eloquent about how one particular brand was head and shoulders above the rest…the soundstage just “exploded” when that cable was in the system, according to him. I wasn’t hearing it, and I didn’t buy that cable…I went with the smaller Goertz because it was flat and slid under the rug and out of sight a bit better than the others. It sounded fine and it satisfied the itch I had at the time for a “high-end” cable….but I thought that either my ears weren’t as good as his or his claims were bunk. Hey, you’ve got to trust yours ears ; ) Incidentally, I still use that Goertz cable in my system).

Several years later, I went to a Krell demonstration at the same local shop. Dan D’Agostino was there to hype his CAST (current audio signal transmission or something) technology at the time. To prove how it worked and how superior it was, he used long lengths of zip cord from the local hardware store as speaker cables between the CAST amps and a pair of Wilson X1 speakers. He said CAST made the cabling irrelevant, and the demonstration was pretty persuasive. Later that night, I mentioned to the local retailer that he was facing a potential problem…if all his high end customers embraced CAST, his high-end cable business would die. His totally serious response: “Don’t think for a moment that Transparent won’t find a way to improve CAST.” Lo and behold, soon you could buy hyper expensive CAST cabling from either Transparent or Krell…this despite the fact that the CAST designer said cabling was irrelevant with that technology.

A couple years ago, TAS ran a speaker cable shootout that included a pair of orange and black extension cords from Home Depot. While the extension cords didn’t come out on top, they received overall high praise, with some comments suggesting that the HD sound seemed more free-flowing and less messed-around-with than the other offerings from well-known manufacturers like XLO, Wireworld, Monster etc. All very subjective of course, but that shootout spoke volumes, IMHO.

I’ll also include a link to a piece written by another cable skeptic who challenged a well-known manufacture to demonstrate the superiority of his product…with interesting results. Maybe you’ve already read it, but if not, here it is:
http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html

Yes, it’s a tired debate, but still a fun one, IMHO.

[Phil A]

A couple years ago, TAS ran a speaker cable shootout that included a pair of orange and black extension cords from Home Depot. While the extension cords didn’t come out on top, they received overall high praise, with some comments suggesting that the HD sound seemed more free-flowing and less messed-around-with than the other offerings from well-known manufacturers like XLO, Wireworld, Monster etc. All very subjective of course, but that shootout spoke volumes, IMHO.

I’ll also include a link to a piece written by another cable skeptic who challenged a well-known manufacture to demonstrate the superiority of his product…with interesting results. Maybe you’ve already read it, but if not, here it is:
http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html

Yes, it’s a tired debate, but still a fun one, IMHO.

A couple of notes related to the above.  For about a 5 yr. period I had a friend who worked at a high end shop and did virtually every set-up/install with him.  I had access to the store after hours (or I brought stuff home) to test stuff I made vs. expensive stuff.  Not that the raw mat'ls I buy are cheap but not in the stratosphere of the high end brands.  I did a delivery with him close to where I live and became friendly with the person afterwards.  He had listened to various cables in the store and bought one of brands noted earlier in the post I quoted from.  His system includes an SP 1.7 and a 9BSST.  The speaker cables for the left and right channel were $1.8k list, the (balanced) interconnects between his amp and preamp for the left and right channel were $1.1k list and the single ended RCAs from his CD player to the SP 1.7 were $650 list (they probably gave him 10% on the cabling). 

He had gone into the store asking about SACD at the time and they did not carry much and he ended up with a $3.6k CD player.  I later talked my friend who worked in the store to order a $1k list CD/SACD player for himself and the owner would not carry it (takes away from sales of more expensive stuff).  One Saturday when the owner was not there he brought his player in and sold 3 more and after that the owner carried it.  The person who lives close to me saw the $1k list player about a month after he bought his system and was slightly annoyed that they danced around the subject when he inquired about it.  He brought the player home (borrowed it) on a Saturday evening (the store is closed Sun. and Mon.) and forgot to get cables (to test it in stereo vs. his player or play it in multi-channel).  He called me and I took 3 pair of cables off of my set-up so he could listen to it.  When I went to pick them up the following evening he had done an A/B (his CD player had 2 sets of outputs) and replaced the cabling between the left and right channel of his preamp and amp.  It was a night and day difference.  He had done me favors so I made cables for him at cost and he was sick after paying so much for the name brand (they do have marketing expenses, rent, etc. after all). 

He also tried the Home Depot wire per the Absolute Sound article and found it decent.  There are lots of things that work decently.  One I'd recommended is Belden 83030 as decent and not breaking the bank.  It comes in 100 ft. spools and 10 or so colors (e.g. red and black are among them).  It is 16 ga. internal appliance wiring.  You can get expandable sleeving and double it up if you want more ga. and plasic tubing in the plumbing dept. of Home Depot to run the multiple strands thru and put the expandable sleeving over if you want it to look big and fat (you can also buy heat shrink to put over the ends and fancy connectors too).  It's around $50/spool so it is $100 or so to do it.  Not necessarily the cheapest stuff in the world but I personally preferred it over a name store brand set of $600 speaker wires on various systems I tried.  JSC Wire and Cable makes 'hi-strand' copper stuff.  I tried the 4x16 gauge.  It is decent for the money.  You need to buy spools of it but I was doing the basement and did not want to go nuts for a seldom used system for the surrounds. 

As I noted I don't care what anyone buys with their own money or believes (with regard to differences existing).  I dislike a couple of aspects of the debate - those who feel the need to point to some theory that someone wrote to convince others of their viewpoint with little or no real world experience (I've literally bought miles of raw wire), no matter what their position is (on whether differences exist).  It's kind of like having two job candidates, one with experience and the other with a theory on why they don't need it.  I also don't like the way some dealers push the high end stuff as a certain % of the budget.  Yes, it should be considered but one can always start with less expensive cabling in many cases.  Some components are not as sensitive and not everyone hears identically.  The dealers of course are not impartial nor will they necessarily look out for your wallet.

[budt]

I will state right up front.I think expensive cables/interconnects are a rip off and that many companies behind such products have poor ethics.Let's face it,there is no "hard evidence" for claims made by  esoteric wire companies yet they imply "facts" not beliefs.This is down right dishonest.I choose not to support such companies.Many of them probably view audiophiles as born suckers and perhaps make jokes at their expense(I know I do...lol).
  Also since they claim measurements don't  tell the story then please answer this: How do they decide on a design criteria? It's kind of absurd when you think about it.
  I would rather spend extra money on better speakers etc where it will make a real difference and not just a perceived difference.
  Cables can only sound different if they were deliberately designed to do so which means you have willingly paid  to add distortion? Quite ironic, don't ya think?