[Thebiker]

Of course tubes are a pain.....but then so are many other passions .

[BobRex]

By the way, I think tubes are a pain in the ass.

Why do you think that?  My Joule Electra linestage has been running untouched for over 6 years.  Same with my Herron phono.  My Moondog amps blew one 2A3 after 5 years.  Before that I had a conrad johnson  PV5 and MV75.  Both were reliable over a 10 year period. 

[Dan Driscoll]

However, when does the unbridled enthusiasm for a product by a user (a recent case here many of you may remember centered on the CLC) stop and shilling begin?

By definition, a person must have a financial or other vested interest to be considered a shill. If that is not the case, he or she cannot be a shill, period. An overly enthusiastic owner may appear to be a shill, but that does not make him or her one.

[macrojack]

Dan - That raises the question of how can you tell who has an interest and who doesn't? We're back at square one where this thread opened. Even if we have a precise definition (not trying to sell speakers) for what we think a shill is, there remains the problem of deciphering the intent and appropriateness of what we read in a forum.

[Thebiker]

BobRex,
Actually, I don't find tubes to be a problem.  My Manley Stingray was rock solid until it was time for a new set of tubes, about 2200 hours when the power tubes started to drift.  Re-tubed and back to stable.

My Carey SLI-80 hasn't fluctuated since I set it up and it now has about 800 hours on it. 

I check bias monthly because it's fast and easy, and I would rather see a problem start before my musician wife hears a problem.  Yeah, she's spoiled, but so am I .

[miklorsmith]

An overly enthusiastic owner says they are what they are.  A paid spokesperson posing as something else is being dishonest to achieve financial benefits.  It's a wide chasm.

I think of good and bad posts as points of triangulation.  I look for patterns over a long period of time.  For instance, Salk speakers have a long pattern of positive feedback but how much are we hearing about the Paradisea DAC now?  I don't believe any shilling was happening with either product, but one or a couple of owners screaming from the rooftops screams "flash in the pan" and doesn't sway me at all, honest or not.  Now, if I know the person doing the talking, that's another thing.

[macrojack]

I'm more likely to be paid to keep quiet. Anyone?

[miklorsmith]

macro - this isn't the first time I've heard you allude to your friendship with Sean and Zu, as well as the potential benefits of your relationship.  I won't be calling you out.

Besides, I have a secret contract myself that nobody gets to know about whereby I make millions off sales of Zu speakers.  Strictly hush hush.  So, I won't tattle on you if you clam up about me.  Deal?

[Thebiker]

Macro Jack,
Bottom line is frequently you can't tell.  Would you buy a product because one person jumps up and down and swears that this ------ is the best thing since sliced bread?  We are all reasonably intelligent (OK, some of us ) and most of us won't spend our hard earned cash without doing the research appropriate to the expenditure.  If your best buddy comes along and endorse it and already bought one himself, that is one thing.  But one overly enthusiastic person in a forum?  I don't think so.  Their enthusiasm might get you to take a closer look at a product, but unless you feel it has merit, you don't reach for your wallet.

As always you don't buy what you haven't seen/heard unless it comes with a money back satisfaction guarantee.  Or as an old friend of mine used to say:
"Don't bite a bare hook!".

[Night_Train]

Dan - That raises the question of how can you tell who has an interest and who doesn't? We're back at square one where this thread opened. Even if we have a precise definition (not trying to sell speakers) for what we think a shill is, there remains the problem of deciphering the intent and appropriateness of what we read in a forum.

And even if a person IS a shill, what are the chances that that person is going to admit it anyway. I could just hear the shiller now: "well, okay...you guys caught me....I admit it.....I'm a shill." I think it would be hardly a fat chance in the world on that note. I would imagine most would deny it. Where is the issue then? Just like on the old "To Tell The Truth" game show: "Will the real shill please stand up?" hehehehe

[Night_Train]

macro - this isn't the first time I've heard you allude to your friendship with Sean and Zu, as well as the potential benefits of your relationship.  I won't be calling you out.

Besides, I have a secret contract myself that nobody gets to know about whereby I make millions off sales of Zu speakers.  Strictly hush hush.  So, I won't tattle on you if you clam up about me.  Deal?

Just go ahead and "call a spade....oops, I mean a shill.....a shill!"  hehehehe

[JohninCR]

The ones I'd like to catch are the cable and powercord shills.  They're the ones who created much of that silliness, and should be dealt with in the same manner that I would afford spammers.  With that ball rolling, then people really do hear differences, because they expect to hear them.  I'd love to have some really cool looking cables, but only for a reasonable price based solely on their construction.  I choose to leave the magic to the musicians.

[Rick Craig]

Dan - That raises the question of how can you tell who has an interest and who doesn't? We're back at square one where this thread opened. Even if we have a precise definition (not trying to sell speakers) for what we think a shill is, there remains the problem of deciphering the intent and appropriateness of what we read in a forum.

And even if a person IS a shill, what are the chances that that person is going to admit it anyway. I could just hear the shiller now: "well, okay...you guys caught me....I admit it.....I'm a shill." I think it would be hardly a fat chance in the world on that note. I would imagine most would deny it. Where is the issue then? Just like on the old "To Tell The Truth" game show: "Will the real shill please stand up?" hehehehe

Sometimes they like to brag about it to other forum members. That's how I found out 

[andy_c]

There's all kinds of people with all kinds of agendas that post to internet discussion groups.

Here's a specific example.  In the General forum of Audio Asylum, there is a post spreading FUD about Welbourne Labs titled, "Is Welbourn Labs out of business?".  In that forum one can do searches for posts containing a given IP address.  Here's how to do it.  Copy the IP address of the poster to the clipboard (in this case it's 74.129.6.205, found at the top of the post).  Go to the full search facility of the forum by pressing the "Go!" button at the top of the page with an empty "Text to find" field.  This will show a search dialog.  In the "Text to find" box, paste in the IP address ("74.129.6.205" without quotes).  Now remove the dots from the IP address so it reads "741296205" without quotes.  Choose "All Forums" in the "From Forum" combo box and click the "Go!" button.  Bingo!  You will see that this guy is a sockpuppet posting under four different monikers (mdm, morrowaudio, m1239 and john1239).  I have deliberately not posted a comment to the moderators so that other people can verify this.  This took me about five minutes to find.

As a caveat, this procedure sometimes gives erroneous results.  For example, all AOL posters show up under the same IP address because of some kind of proxy that's used.  Some other ISPs are like this as well.  It's pretty easy to spot this case though, as you'll get a very large number of matches.

[Steve]

Thanks Andy. Also, money does not have to be directly or indirectly involved. There are instances of friendships, associations, buddy groups etc.

[AKSA]

So, tentative rule:

1.  Shills are no longer shills if they disclose their interest/alliance.
2.  Those who do not, if removed by mods, will be very angry and cause trouble - yet they will be visible after a short time anyway, and my 'nanny state' argument is still valid.
3.  A good review can still be a shill, effectively.  Should we consider them, too?

Andy,

Thank you for your disclosure.  You were offensive and silly, and I reacted, and that's the end of the matter.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Duke]

Sometimes the most difficult type of shill to detect is the subliminal one.  You may be [boze] reading along thinking the topic is one thing, but all the time there's this message [buy boze] that's being repeated to your subconscious mind over and over without you even being aware.  Next thing you know [boze knows], almost without realizing what you're doing, you pick up the phone and dial that toll-free number [1-800-BUY-BOZE] and recite your name, address, and credit card number.  And once the process [bozefication] begins, it never ends.  Before long, you too could become a subliminal shill [like this bozo] and not even know it. 

[andy_c]

Andy,

Thank you for your disclosure.  You were offensive and silly, and I reacted, and that's the end of the matter.

Cheers,

Hugh

No, thank you, for your petty, condescending reply - and for misrepresenting the facts of the matter.

[WOR Radio]

LOL Duke!

[Dan Driscoll]

Dan - That raises the question of how can you tell who has an interest and who doesn't? We're back at square one where this thread opened. Even if we have a precise definition (not trying to sell speakers) for what we think a shill is, there remains the problem of deciphering the intent and appropriateness of what we read in a forum.

Say someone who worked for Nottingham* came into the forum and started posting anonymously about how great Nottingham* turntables are. We would all probably agree that Nottingham does makes really good TT's, but the employee is still a shill, because he (or she) isn't disclosing they they have an interest in seeing more Nottingham products sold.

OTOH, I don't work for Nottingham*, I don't know anyone who does, I don't own a piece of the company, etc., I just like the turntables they make and I write lots of posts raving about how I love my Nottingham TT and recommending it to everyone. Unless you know me personally, how can you, or anyone else, tell the difference between me and the shill?

The answer is that you can't. You have to make a judgment call, based on your knowledge of me, the (possible) shill poster, our relative past posting history, the product and company, etc. Which is absolutely no different from virtually everything else, especially on-line. You're never absolutely certain, even if it's from someone you have agreed with in the past. And your own experiences aren't going to help much, because even if the product they are pushing is something you are also raving about, they are still shilling if they have a vested interest.

(*Nottingham is used strictly as an example, in no way am I implying that Nottingham does or ever has used shills.)