[Rick Craig]

It's not always a low post count. I know of shills who actually post quite often.

I'm posting less and less all the time Rick 

Hey, I paid you quite a bit - where's the rest of your positive posts? 

[Marbles]

Hey guys, I've had these surround speakers for a long time with no thoughts of changing them...BEST surrounds I've ever heard.  If you don't have them, you don't have shit.....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22814.0


How's that Rick 

[JohninCR]

True shilling is typically obvious by their low post count, and they will often do so in ways that are quite sneaky.

The more interesting thing I noted in the "clock" thread was how obnoxious some of those who are typically on the "believer" side of the fence were, yet if someone makes similar toned statements about something like power cords, they get put in time out.

It's not always a low post count. I know of shills who actually post quite often.

True, but that would be atypical.  Plus, if a shill goes unidentified for a long period of time, shame on members who didn't catch on earlier.  The sneakiest way, other than degrading competitors as mentioned earlier, is coming in and asking a question about a product, usually with a link included.  That is almost impossible to distinguish between a valid question, but it achieves the intended purpose, to drive traffic to the product(s).

The cases I've witnessed are where the shill is given an unusually large discount or commission by a manufacturer to hype a product. Manufacturers who do this like to find someone who is very visible, influential, and active on a forum. They want someone who people will listen to and take their advice.

Stuff like that should get brought out into the light of day for all to see.

[acresm22]

Okay, I'm not a frequent poster here but I am an avid reader. Not trying to reignite the flame war of the CLC thread, but I thought it was interesting and entertaining....not because the CLC is such a sham product (which it is), but because the poster touting it was so ruthlessly scorned by people who presumably are quick to accept the sonic merits of component stands and the system-transforming benefits of cables. Hey, if swapping cables, or putting your amp on a $200 butcher block, or using green markers on your discs, our plugging in the CLC, or putting a photo of yourself in the fridge...if these things convince you that your system has improved, then more power to you and more power to the people marketing them.

Dan

[andy_c]

That said, recently one of my customers was accused of shilling by an esteemed academic member on another forum, who then promptly posted abuse privately to me.....  so it's a difficult one.  These extreme reactions are more likely due the complainant than the 'accused';  it was an unusual scenario.

That would be me.  In another forum, I responded to a post concerning listening tests of an an AKSA amplifier with a statement along the lines of "There needs to be a shill forum for posts like this".  In the absence of other actions, that would have been the end of it.  But within minutes of my post, I received an unsolicited email from Hugh.  In my response I stated "Welcome to my email killfile" which is likely the "abuse" he is referring to.  Hugh's "...who then promptly posted abuse privately to me..." statement is misleading.  If I hadn't received the unsolicited email from him, the situation would have ended there.

[tex-amp]

The cases I've witnessed are where the shill is given an unusually large discount or commission by a manufacturer to hype a product. Manufacturers who do this like to find someone who is very visible, influential, and active on a forum. They want someone who people will listen to and take their advice.

I was offered free use of some expensive speakers at CES. I'm guessing from how active I am on AVS.

How about, when is criticism criticism and when is criticism a personal crusade?


 

[Rick Craig]

I was offered free use of some expensive speakers at CES. I'm guessing from how active I am on AVS.

How about, when is criticism criticism and when is criticism a personal crusade?


 


[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Can you give an example?

[tex-amp]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Can you give an example?

How can you tell when someone has valid criticism of a product as opposed to their criticism being a personal issue against a poster/forum member or a company.

[Rick Craig]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Can you give an example?

How can you tell when someone has valid criticism of a product as opposed to their criticism being a personal issue against a poster/forum member or a company.

Sometimes it can be difficult to know what the real motive is, whether a post is positive or negative. I tend to look at the track record of the person posting to decide if I can trust their opinion.

[Zero]

Shilling has been a fundamental practice and part of business for centuries. Its nothing new, and while often times it can be easy to detect who and who does not have an agenda, it is becoming increasingly difficult to determine if a source is truly credible or not. When it comes to hi-fi audio and video, more times than not the issue is never completely black or white.

I think most people can agree that nearly all hi-fi operations depend largely off of buzz and enthusiasm, especially for consumer direct companies that sink few dollars into paying for those color paged ads (eg; reviews) in popular mag’s. Naturally, some manufactures/dealers have no quips in offering a visible customer an incentive or two for their time in helping to generate or maintain that enthusiasm. So how can you tell the difference between a person or persons that personally and financially benefits off of product recommendations to those that do not? Unfortunately, there is no real solid answer I’ve come up with and most of the times it will boil down to how perceptive you are and how active you are in various communities. Even then, you are likely to peg it wrong at least once or twice.

From personal experience; I’ve seen situations to where a customer is so enthused about a product that their gushing reviews and promotions can easily be interpreted as them being nothing more than a paid shill; when in fact, they were just incredibly vocal… nearly to the point of being a liability to the company that makes the product that said person is trying to so vehemently support. While tempered enthusiasm often yields the highest degree of credibility in the eyes of most readers; some people simply lack composition and let their emotions do the communicating which can send misleading messages. Yet on the other hand; sometimes things are exactly what they appear to be.

I’ve also had a few surprising moments when I discovered a few highly respected members of various communities turned out to be receiving under the table benefits and spiffs for their tactically placed suggestions found here and there. Of course, there are also those that just happened to find something they like and do their best to lead others in the same direction in hopes they too can share the joy.

Shills or not; recommendations, passion, and popularity are driving factors that cause season and un-seasoned veterans alike to lay down their green. If you spend enough time in the hobby; weeding out the shills from the sea of genuine enthusiasts recommendations becomes an easier process. You may recognize someone’s style of posting throughout different forums, recognize the same IP address or sometimes more obviously; user-name, and will recognize when commentary borders on ridiculous / suspicious.  Unfortunately there is no real formula to go by. The best you can do is exercise common sense and take the extra time for some leg-work.

[macrojack]

Recent comments lead me to the distinction of whether or not the promoter in question is being paid. Is there an arrangement in place? Are the "shill" and the product source just friends? I have become friends with Sean Casey at Zu and I have an arrangement whereby I could benefit from playing a part in the sale of Zu speakers. This friendship came about after I had bought my speakers and cables.
Under the terms of their offer to me, I can receive a commission for any sale that results from me demonstrating the product in my home. Does this make me a shill? I think it might if I lived in N.Y or Chicago or L.A. Since I live in the boonies and no one has been here to hear my speakers in the 14 months that I've owned them, I don't think so. All Zu sales are factory direct, by the way. I have no inventory to unload and nothing to sell. However, the potential exists for me to benefit from pushing Zu speakers. This is kind of grey in my opinion.
On the other hand, a guy like Rush Limbaugh is a shill. Certain reviewers can probably be seen as shills. I haven't read the mags enough in recent years to know. I suspect that S-phile is a shill for Musical Fidelity just like it was for Sonic Frontier back when I was active.
I think most online shills appear in the accessory realm. Stupid gizmos like the clock with high margins get peddled on a kind of multi-tiered program like Amway or Mary Kay.

[Zero]

If there is fiscal interest behind a recommendation; in many minds, you're a shill.  If you are involved with the industry in any way beyond being a casual buyer, there will be people who will question the motives behind your suggestions. Its why you _rarely_ find manufacter reps (or other personnel), reviewers, dealers (in general), or distributors openly posting in forums such as these.

But lets face it, the industry is small and there are many great folks that are easy to become friends with. Its our nature to want to help out or friends and give them some degree of special treatment. Personally, I dont believe there is anything inherently wrong with this.

If you come across a thread where an individual states their needs and your friends product just happens to fit the bill, then I see no harm in stating 'hey, check out brand _x_ becase.." While you may benefit if that person decides to take that route; I find it to be more honest and genuine.

However, if I search a forums history for product information and all I come back with is your name (or vica versa); shill or no shill, it leaves a bad impression not only to your credibility but perhaps to the company as well; even if they have nothing to do with it.

I defer back to my above response; you will not be able to determine everyone who has some financial interest behind their recommendations. Just use common sense and go about your business. Its easier for an experienced audiophile to recognize than it is the 'newb', but it just is what it is.

[macrojack]

O.K. All of you are invited to my house to hear the best speaker in the world and to make me a shill. Since I don't have a job, I'd be willing to take that one on. I live in Western Colorado near the Utah border about 1 mile north of I-70. The only audiophile I know in my area has Merlin speakers he bought new in 1988 and expresses a lack of interest in audio today. I'm the tree that falls in the forest when no one is present. Do I make a sound?

[Rick Craig]

Recent comments lead me to the distinction of whether or not the promoter in question is being paid. Is there an arrangement in place? Are the "shill" and the product source just friends? I have become friends with Sean Casey at Zu and I have an arrangement whereby I could benefit from playing a part in the sale of Zu speakers. This friendship came about after I had bought my speakers and cables.
Under the terms of their offer to me, I can receive a commission for any sale that results from me demonstrating the product in my home. Does this make me a shill? I think it might if I lived in N.Y or Chicago or L.A. Since I live in the boonies and no one has been here to hear my speakers in the 14 months that I've owned them, I don't think so. All Zu sales are factory direct, by the way. I have no inventory to unload and nothing to sell. However, the potential exists for me to benefit from pushing Zu speakers. This is kind of grey in my opinion.
On the other hand, a guy like Rush Limbaugh is a shill. Certain reviewers can probably be seen as shills. I haven't read the mags enough in recent years to know. I suspect that S-phile is a shill for Musical Fidelity just like it was for Sonic Frontier back when I was active.
I think most online shills appear in the accessory realm. Stupid gizmos like the clock with high margins get peddled on a kind of multi-tiered program like Amway or Mary Kay.

When I first started my business I made a similar offer (like Zu) to a customer because I wanted to compensate him for his time. I think that is fair as long as the person providing the demo makes it public knowledge. In the end I decided not to do that based on the advice I received from another customer. He brought up the point that even if the speakers sound great there would always be speculation that the person giving the demo was a paid shill for the company.

Having a home dealer (and getting ready to add some more) works for me since everything is above board and potential customers know ahead of time that there is a commission paid to the dealer. I do refer people to other owners if I have someone near them who's willing to have them come listen; however, the owners do this on a volunteer basis and receive no compensation.

[woodsyi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

I think the person did a good job defining the term.  I think similar actions of outward appreciation can either be shilling or not depending on the intent of the "shiller."  We just have to look for the context to determine which it really is.  I guess that's why posting history makes a difference. 

Note to self:  Just because a new person shows up gushing about a product, don't immediately think he is a shill because you felt like that once too.    Don't crush a budding audiophile's enthusiasm with jaded snipes. 

[ZLS]

Macrojack, thank you for the full disclosure.  You are not a shill once you disclose your interest.  I then can make an informed and intelligent decision as to any posting you may make regarding the Zu's.  
    Macrojack's situation touches on a situation that exists on AC that I personally believe is a good thing and adds value to this forum.  
    The majority of manufacturer's that have circles on this forum are small cottage industry sole proprietors.  It is in their best interest, and I believe their customers best interest to use this forum as a focus and/or consultant group.  The manufactures can use the feedback they gather to better their products or develop new products based on the feedback they receive.  A personal relationship may develop between the customer and the manufacturer based on mutual respect.  Suggestions made be made, opinions may be asked, in the end the result is a better product that benefits all.  
    I get the most enjoyment and learn the most when these dialogues are posted.  
    If I buy more than one product from given manufacturer because I like the sound does that make me a shill?  If all the posting of AC members were eliminated who fall into this category what would be left?  

[Night_Train]

...seven shillers shilling, six Hornes a horning, fiiiive cheap ICs....

"a penny for your thoughts = a shill for your thoughts" hehehehe

"To shill or not to shill, that is the question"

How much shill could a shillseller shill, if a shillseller could shill...ahh, forget about it.

"For whom the shill tolls......It tolls for thee."   hehehehe

[Thebiker]

Post count definitely does not indicate a shill.  I assume that it could if the only time they post is to sing the praises of one brand of equipment.

My post count is low for the amount of time I have been a member.  The main reason for that is I generally only post if I think I have something worthwhile to contribute that hasn't already been posted by another member.  Whether in a forum or in person, I listen more and try to keep my contributions both timely and valuable.  I find that I learn more that way.

I will sing the praises of the gear I own, because I chose it for it's merits.  I will also sing the praise of tubes over SS, because that is also my preference.  And I have used good solid state (McIntosh).

So, let's not try to get to the point much of society has gotten to with their concepts of "PC".  Too much of that tends to deny the right to expression of the majority to take care of the minority.

Enough of that soap box.  I have a number of pet peeves and occasionally they surface.

[macrojack]

Keep talking, biker .. this whole thing is a soapbox. Your policies, as you express them, seem prudent and your contributions cogent. And, from what I've seen and experienced here, you don't need to monitor yourself too strictly. The rest of us will do that for you ....... and each other.

[macrojack]

By the way, I think tubes are a pain in the ass.