[pjchappy]

The 'm' means minor.  So, E and B minor in that song.

If you can read guitar TABS, here is the solo, showing the notes in my first post of D E F# A B  (not in order) of the solo.   http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/p/pink_floyd/comfortably_numb_solo_ver3_tab.htm

p

[jules]

a chord or a note?

if it's a note ... E minor  and B minor ... I'd presume they mean E flat and B flat.

If they are E minor and B minor chords ... I'll have to think about it for a moment 

jules

[ooheadsoo]

"m" refers to a minor chord in the underlying harmony, i.e. e minor and b minor.  There are plenty of "blues" notes, and it makes it tricky on paper, but the underlying structure, if what you are saying is accurate, is a D pentatonic with a "blues" note third in the form of that F natural.  But really, all you need to do is listen.  The first guitar solo definitely winds up being based in some kind of D.

Remember, the song doesn't stay in one key the entire time, so don't think too hard!  Go give it a listen, instead.

[jules]

 , listening definitely sounds like the best option.

The notation shows the following ... not in order

A, Bm, C, D, Em and G.

jules

[pjchappy]

So, right now, this stuff is over my head a bit.  (I'll slowly teach myself).

How/why would one come up w/ a solo in D major pentatonic, as in Comfortably Numb, w/ the chord progression in the song, which goes as follows:

Verse 1:  Bm A G Bm

Verse 2: D A   D A  C G  

Chorus:
( I have become Comfortably Numb):  A  D  G  D

[Daygloworange]

Individual notes are neither Major or Minor. Basic chords are made up of 3 notes (triad).The interval between the root (first or tonic) and the Third is what determines Major or Minor, and a Dominant (fifth).

Ex:  C Major      C                      E                   G
                 (Root or Tonic)      (Maj.Third)        (Dominant or fifth)  

C Minor:           C                      E (b) Flat        G
                (Root or Tonic)       (Min.Third)       (Dominant or fifth)

Cheers

[Daygloworange]

So, right now, this stuff is over my head a bit.  (I'll slowly teach myself).

How/why would one come up w/ a solo in D major pentatonic, as in Comfortably Numb, w/ the chord progression in the song, which goes as follows:

Verse 1:  Bm A G Bm

Verse 2: D A   D A  C G  

Chorus:
( I have become Comfortably Numb):  A  D  G  D

pjchappy,

Here is a little trick to help you as you learn more about the theory. List the notes of the chords in the chord progression. For example:

B min: B D F#
A min: A C E
G Maj: G B D

List them out in order :  E F# G A B C D

You now have seven notes. This is an E minor scale.

Sounds easy? It is. Except when there is a key change. That's when it gets a little complicated. It'll become more and more clear over time.

Cheers

[ooheadsoo]

Daygloworange, the letters pjchappy listed are chords, not individual notes.  If unspecified, it is assumed to be major, lower case "m" denotes minor, 7 denotes some kind of seventh, dominant seventh chords are notated d7, e.g. Ad7, etc.

pjchappy, the song moves to the key of D by the second verse, so it's no surprise that the solo is in the key of D.  The chorus, although it starts on an A chord, is most likely also in D, from the looks of it.  In this case, the guitarist did not touch heavily (at all?) upon scale degrees 4 and 7 in the solo, according to what you're telling us.  That leaves us with 5 primary notes, hence we used the term pentatonic.  It helps that the 5 main notes that he plays happen to coincide with one of the most common pentatonic scales.  Pure coincidence?  Nah.

If you really want to start to learn theory, maybe you can find some tutorials on some simple roman and arabic numeral analysis.  It will take a lot to start to understand it, and its implications, and you will need to firm up your foundations, but it's really worth it.  I just find it hard to believe that there are good resources for this kind of understanding.  I went through 3 theory professors before I encountered one that made me understand.  Best valued courses of my education, once I found him.  Helps you to appreciate all music.  But this is really rare, in my limited opinion.

[jules]

it seems that "while I was typing 2, yes 2 new replies have been posted  , still I'll add this to the confusion!

For D major [and I'm talking conventional scales here as I'm still not sure if this is pentatonic] the minor scale is B minor. D major has two sharps, F# and C#. B minor also has F# and C# but in addition you add A# and G#. If you can, have a go at playing it on a piano you'll get the feel.

For G major the minor scale is E minor. G major has one sharp, F#. E minor also has F# but it also uses C# and D#.

On paper it looks totally meaningless but if you can play the major, followed by the minor, it makes total sense and as far as composition goes, the changes from a major key to its relative minor key are a standard move ... if I can put it that way.

jules

I notice "version 1" specifies pentatonic blues scale ...

[Daygloworange]

ooheadsoo,

I was just giving a random example. In that case with his exact example it would be like this:

B Min: B D F#
A Maj: A C# E
G Maj: G B D

Arranged in a row: E F# G A B C# D        (re-arranged B C# D E F# G A )

This is a B Minor scale. (D Maj. [is the relative Major to B min]: D E F# G A B C#)

Cheers

[ooheadsoo]

Basically, only major mode works chordally, the way we traditionally think.  Minor scales are separate from the minor mode.  There are lots of different minor scales, harmonic minor, melodic minor, natural minor, you can look these up easily.  With minor, there is a basic set of notes that we form chords out of, but when moving horizontally, rather than vertically, (note to note as time progresses vs simultaneous sounds) we often use different sets of notes accepted as belonging to various minor scales, rather than the minor mode.  In addition, in order to function tonally, the chord based on the 5th scale degree must be modified to be a dominant type, which means raising scale degree 7.  There are many reasons why, and without an aural demonstration of why things work they way they work, you will be just be learning by rote have no true understanding.  That's why it's hard to do this over the net.

On paper, confusion reigns supreme.  You can have chromatic alterrations that will throw you for a loop on paper.  You have to listen to determine the function of each note.

Wait, are you talking about the second guitar solo that ends the song?  That's definitely in b minor.  We should establish that this song's chords do not exactly function tonally.  Unfortunately, it is not entirely pentatonic since he definitely plays C# many times as a prominent note in his solo.  I'm not so sure about the 5 notes you named in your original post.  However, what he does do, primarily, is play the minor pentatonic blues that Daygloworange mentioned.  I don't think he ever hits scale degree 6 in bminor, though.  So, excepting chromatic alterrations and that scale degree 2 he plays during the slow parts of his solos, the faster improv'ed parts are essentially the minor pentatonic scale.  IMO.  This is not clean and cut.

[pjchappy]

So, excepting chromatic alterrations and that scale degree 2 he plays during the slow parts of his solos, the faster improved parts are essentially the minor pentatonic scale.  IMO.  This is not clean and cut.

It sounds good, though!   

A lot to digest. 

Another question, how do you determine the "root" chord of a song?

[jules]

a simple way of looking at a chromatic scale is that on the piano you'd use all the keys, black and white.

What instrument do you play ooheadsoo?

jules

edited due to some odd strikethrough function

oops ... can't get rid of it 

[ooheadsoo]

This is tough in these days of atonal music, or rather, people writing what sounds good to them rather than writing according to set rules that are easy (or easier) to follow and interpret.  Generally, a I, IV, and V chord will establish the I as the root.  With minor, it would be i, iv, and V.  When you hear these 3 chords, the I chord will establish itself as the root.  According to western ears and theory, that is.  With stuff that doesn't follow the rules, you just have to take your best stab.  V to I is a good sign, when you see this relationship.  The roman numerals I'm using refer to chords starting the the scale degree indicated by the roman numeral.  Upper case is major, lower case is minor.

jules, i play violin, viola, trombone, and electric bass.  I was forced to tickle the ivories in school, but i adamantly refused to learn...but managed to just barely scrape by.  It's a good thing my keyboard grades were tied to my listening and dictation grades!  Btw, I'm no good at any of my instruments.

[jules]

with a selection of tricky instruments like that you've got to have a great ear for pitch!

jules

[Daygloworange]

Another question, how do you determine the "root" chord of a song?

Generally speaking, in Pop music, the first chord of a song is usually the (root)"Key" of the song. It is usually what the chord progression loops around back to. It is usually the chord a song ends on that gives "resolution" and doesn't make it "hang" with a feeling of incompleteness. It is usually helpful to think of chord progressions as sequences, sections, or "phrases".

Bass notes usually indicate the root (tonic or first) of the chord. Bass lines are usually centered around the "key"
tonality.

Guitars often play "inversions" of chords. That is to say, they play chords more often than not, with the notes in an inverted or random order. And sometimes with notes ommitted.

Ex:  E G C   = C Maj

          E  A  C  E  = A min

      F  A  C  F  = F Maj

          D  A  D  F  = D min

      B  E  B  E  G = E min

Cheers

[pjchappy]

OK, after reading a bunch of stuff tonight, I've got a question I cannot find an answer to.

The C major scale is as follows:  C  D  E  F  G  A  B  C
The C chord scale is as follows:  C  Dm  Em  F  G  Am  Bdim  C   (see http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/chord-scale.html )

The A minor scale, starting from the 6th note of the C major scale, is as follows:  A  B  C  D  E  F  G  A

My question, what does the A minor chord scale/progression do?  Does it do the opposite of the major chord progression scale? For example, would it progress like this?:   

Am B  C  Dm  Em  F  Gdim  Am

Or am I way off? 

Thanks!!!

p

[ooheadsoo]

Just take the C "chord scale" and start from Am.

[pjchappy]

I'm confused. . .would they progress identically?  So, they would be the same, just kinda semantically different, if you will, like this?  Am  Bdim C  Dm  Em  F  G  Am?

[ooheadsoo]

That's the whole trick behind relative major and minor.  They're the same, but with a different root.  One is CM, the other is Am.  Find some music that switches between the two, and you'll probably be able to hear it.  You can definitely hear it when it changes key from major to minor, but the transitions can be quicksilver because the relative major and minor are so tightly interwoven.  It's not a semantic difference.  If you're truly in Am, then chances are extremely good that you will get the dominant of Am, which is E major (dom 7,) NOT Em, like in C major.  It is possible to get Em while in Am, but that is almost always because of a strong descending bass line that overrides tonal harmony.  It boils down to this - you will hear the root as either C maj or A min depending on the logic behind how the chords are being used.  Whether you, personally, can hear it is a matter of experience and training.  And maybe talent or gift, in some cases of geniuses.

Just noticed the way you phrased the question.  They don't "progress" identically.  I'm guessing that you haven't read up on chord progressions, yet.  That is the logic I am referring to.  When you are in a key, you progress a certain way.  There is a certain logic about the chord progressions that establishes one of those chords as root.  That progression will be different between Cmaj and Amin, even though the vast majority of the chords being used are shared between the two keys.  I know you probably meant the word "progress" in layman's terms, but better that you didn't pick up a bad habit.