[brad b]

I think you have to qualify weaker?  As Danny indicated, these things should play very loud if driven by the right amp.  They need some current, as my Diluceo's will make my AVA 350EX cook eggs (well, close), but I do not get breakup at any sane level.  In fact, the strength of this woofer should and is (in my system) in it's ability to go after the upper bass.  I would recommend this speaker with a sub, definitely, as it will not go down like my pair of Dynaudio SE1.3's.  However, Danny definitely made this speaker with that in mind... Great midbass, crossed over to the sub, with an outstanding ribbon to convey the high frequencies.

Depends what people need.  If you want a monitor with deep bass, this is probably not it.  If you plan on crossing this over with a good sub, it should make your short list!
b

[shokunin]

Oh okay..was wondering there The next session will be fun for sure..and you MUST make it. Heck..bring your daughter along if you have to..as long as MD or either of the wifes don't mind. I'll even baby sit

What MD has two wives?  J/K...  now if you only had written "his" instead of "the" wives.   I'll definitely push hard to make it to the next one!!  Don't be surprised if I show up in a baby bjorn

[Sa-dono]

It is also possible that the Ref 1's have a more tipped up response on the top end giving them the impression of greater detail.

The sensitivity is low on the Criterion's. It may be more likely that the amp being used was giving out and causing the break-up than the Eton woofer.

I assure you neither of these are a problem.

And these woofers will play down to a -3db of 55hz.

There was no weight even down to 55 Hz. I must say I was rather surprised. The bass was only mildly better than some of the budget speakers I have heard.

I also sent out a pair of Diluceo's to a guy that also order the Ref 1's, and told him I would be glad to accept the Diluceo's back if he decided to keep the Ref 1's.

His comparisons sounded nothing like what you guys described, and he did not keep the Ref 1's. He kept the Diluceo's, and they have about the same overall sound that the Criterion's have with just higher sensitivity and twice the move mass (two woofers).

His review has already been dissected. I can't say it really matters.

[Sa-dono]

And tweeters lacking detail?

There are no higher detailed tweeters on that market that I know of.

I forgot to respond to this too. Quite a few forum members have commented that some of the ProAc speakers and maybe other speakers were more detailed than the Criterions or Diluceos...so I'm not so sure. Of course I don't personally know which tweeters were used in the particular ProAc speakers that were mentioned, or how the speakers measure. Any thoughts?

[jackman]

I'm traveling on business and unable to say much, but I will note that my experience with the Criterions was nothing like that of the reviewer in this thread.  I thought the Criterions (on Audiojerry's system) had excellent detail, good, accurate bass, and were about as smooth as any monitor style speakers I have ever experienced.  Maybe there was something damaged in shipment.  Hopefully, someone can determine why they sounded so much different in the review.  Also, the bass from the Crierions was pretty good for a smaller monitor.  As far as the comparison with "budget" speakers, I don't think the design goal of the Criterions (or the Dolcetto's..sp?) was deep bass.  You can get speakers at Best Buy with better bass than many expensive monitor style speakers...it will most likely be flabby and colored, but you can get it.  It little midwoofer pumps out some very clean, fast, natural sounding bass.  I can only think that two of them in a speaker would only enhance the low end output.  

Again, not doubting the results of this test.  I'm just saying they sound very different than my experience.  Hopefully, Audiojerry will join this discussion with his thoughts.  He spent quite a bit of time with the little Criterions and was very impressed.

Jman

[hectic1]

I have to agree that something must be a miss here as I have never heard the GR Research speakers descibed as "dark". I will look forward to reading a follow up review as I have heard some very good things about Danny's speakers! Now if I can only get audiojerry to bring his down to Jackman's so I can hear them. I would be up for doing an MBL 321E, Ellis 1801, Onix Ref 1, GR Criterions, listen session!

[jackman]

Hi Bob,

I'm going to post about the MBL's tomorrow when I'm back in town.  Trapped in Chicago at the IFT show...going to dinner tonight with some friends.  Head very foggy from last night and from afternoon golf at Ruffled Feathers.  I hope to have a chance to listen to all of those cool speakers at your place or my place soon.

Adios,

Jack

[Sa-dono]

I'm traveling on business and unable to say much, but I will note that my experience with the Criterions was nothing like that of the reviewer in this thread.  I thought the Criterions (on Audiojerry's system) had excellent detail, good, accurate bass, and were about as smooth as any monitor style speakers I have ever experienced.  Maybe there was something damaged in shipment.  Hopefully, someone can determine why they sounded so much different in the review.  Also, the bass from the Crierions was pretty g ...

Well I can only hope that there is indeed something wrong with the pair of speakers I heard. If so...Danny should really invest a couple cents into better packaging. If not...this is sorely disappointing IMO. How does he package the actual speakers he sells anyways?

And in regards to the bass...this was not in reference to Best Buy like speakers This was in regards to the "budget" speakers like the Ascends, Aperions, and Axioms of the speaker world.

[Mad DOg]

I hope the speakers I heard were indeed damage...i did mention that this was a possibility as i was surprised at what i was hearing after reading so much praise about Danny's speakers. this is also why i mentioned that Danny should contact Cryotweaks to see what might have been the problem as he was present and heard exactly what my review was based on.

I believe Danny had an opportunity to listen to the Onix Ref 1s himself at the AV123 showcase gathering in Dallas last month so I'd be curious to hear how he felt his Crits compared to the Refs he heard. If you're not comfortable discussing another company's products on a public forum, i understand. We can always use PM.

[Danny Richie]

I hope the speakers I heard were indeed damage...i did mention that this was a possibility as i was surprised at what i was hearing after reading so much praise about Danny's speakers. this is also why i mentioned that Danny should contact Cryotweaks to see what might have been the problem as he was present and heard exactly what my review was based on.

I spoke with Mike Garner (Cryotweaks) a couple of hours ago.

He said the center of both woofers were pushed in all the way for one.

This can be caused primarily by a finger being pushed straight into the cone, but both speakers? I doubt any of you good people would do that.

Or it could be caused by the heat. These are shipped with the drivers facing straight up. The dust caps are a soft thin material too.

When they were shipped out last week temps were in the low 100's and the average temperature in the back of the UPS trucks hits a little over 140 degrees in the middle of the day.

So that might have been a culprit. I wonder what other damage the heat may have caused, loose spider (suspension), deformed cone, capacitor damage, etc.

I won't know until I test it, but it sounds like heat may have been part of the problem if not all of it.

My thoughts are that something is not right.

My speakers just don't sound like that at all.

Danny should really invest a couple cents into better packaging. If not...this is sorely disappointing IMO. How does he package the actual speakers he sells anyways?

The speakers are first bagged.

Then wrapped in two layers of 1/2" thick bubble wrap all over except for the front of the speaker.

The front is protected further by a piece of cardboard with 1" worth of bubble wrap all around the edges to keep any pressure away from the drivers.

Then they are individually boxed.

They are then placed in a wood crate that is padded all over with 5/8" think poly Styrofoam.

How's that?

Hey, I have already had UPS bust open a wood crate and destroy one speaker and then claim it to be lost.

And in regards to the bass...this was not in reference to Best Buy like speakers  This was in regards to the "budget" speakers like the Ascends, Aperions, and Axioms of the speaker world.

The Eton 5" woofer will play lower and with less cone flex and distortion of any other 5" woofer I have ever seen, heard, tested, worked with, etc.

The only woofer I know of that will play that low, that is that small, and match its low distortion is one of the Accuton's.

I assure you neither of these are a problem.

So the response of the Ref 1's are not tipped up in the highs?

Do you or anyone else have these measurements?

They sounded a little that way to me when I heard them, but due to the environment that I heard them in no judgement could be made with certainty because of other contributing factors.

And the amp was not running out of power?

Just looking for some explanation here. None of this sounds consistent with how they sound or have ever sounded here or anywhere else.

His review has already been dissected. I can't say it really matters.

You dissected his review?

Did you find fault with his opinions?

I only brought it up as an example of another person that made these comparisons but had a completely different view. All one more reason for me to believe something was wrong.

I for one feel every's opinions matter.

I believe Danny had an opportunity to listen to the Onix Ref 1s himself at the AV123 showcase gathering in Dallas last month so I'd be curious to hear how he felt his Crits compared to the Refs he heard. If you're not comfortable discussing another company's products on a public forum, i understand. We can always use PM.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Mark when he asked me what I thought of his speakers.

I was most impressed with the small EXL, ESL (something like that) line that he was demo-ing upstairs.

When I got them to turn it down to levels that minimized the room reflections of the hotel room I could get a feel for the speakers. They didn't freak me out or stand out in any one way, but for what they did do it would be hard to top for a retail price of $199. a pair.

And they sounded better than anything else I heard.

Why would that be?

Because the room that everything else was in was like an amphitheater, and was as noisy as a bowling alley.

You couldn't have made any speaker in there sound good, not good enough to impress me.

All was bright, hooty, and overwhelming. Plus, volume levels were pushed higher to overcome room reflections not turned down to minimize them. It was kind of like a night club.

Most demos were with movies.

Point of reference was none. I have no idea how Monster Inc. should sound. It was loud and would make you feel like you just stepped off a roller coaster ride by the time the movie was over, and 5 minutes into it I wanted off.

Sorry that wasn't much of any feedback on the speakers but that was the way it was.

Most that were there were impressed to the 9th degree and seamed blown away, all smiles, and couldn't wait to take that theater experience home. Despite my impressions I think it went well for Mark.

I look forward to examining our speakers and hate it that you guys got what you did. What is wrong I will only know when they return.

[Mad DOg]

I spoke with Mike Garner (Cryotweaks) a couple of hours ago.

He said the center of both woofers were pushed in all the way for one.

This can be caused primarily by a finger being pushed straight into the cone, but both speakers? I doubt any of you good people would do that.

Danny,

Yes, Cryotweaks is correct that the centers (dustcaps) of both woofers were pushed in, but not all the way and not by any of us. Please check with Randytsuch as he pointed this out to me when I met him to pick up the speakers. He said that the dustcaps were already depressed when he received them. Since it looks like a dustcap, I didn't think they would affect the sound.

[Danny Richie]

Randy said they came out of the crate that way (with the dust caps pushed in).

I know, since I packed them, that they did not go out that way.

That is why I am thinking that they may have gotten too hot.

[Mad DOg]

and thanks for sharing ur impressions on the dallas meet...since i wasn't there and couldn't tell what the rooms looked like, i didn't realize the rooms weren't ideal for any critical listening.

i was simply asking because you know your speakers in and out and you've had an opportunity to hear the speakers I own so if my impressions didn't match up anywhere close to yours, then it would be safe to say that the ones we heard were defective in some way shape or form. that's all i was trying to confirm.

and i agree with you that every opinion is valid and counts. while i realize that everyone's opinion is subjective, i try my best to be as objective and fair as possible when posting my opinions on the forums. and that's what i have tried very hard to do here.

boy, i am really glad that Cryotweaks was in attendance to confirm the sounds we heard on Saturday.

[Mad DOg]

Randy said they came out of the crate that way (with the dust caps pushed in).

I know, since I packed them, that they did not go out that way.

That is why I am thinking that they may have gotten too hot.

that's good. i just want to be sure you know that i did not attempt to sabotage the speakers in any way!  

please let me know if there was something wrong w/ the pair that I got from Randy...i'd love to hear your speakers the way they are supposed to sound.

[John Casler]

I was present for the session and would generally concur with the assessment.

Since I have VMPS 626Rs I am familiar with the potential of the ribbons and was rather surprised at the result.

As Danny has said they might have been damaged and in fact the dustcaps on both woofs had been pushed in somewhat, but I don't know what effect that might have (if any) overall.

Key points:

They were extremely congested and uninvolving at lower levels

They have "little bass" in comparison to the Ref Ones

They did sound much better at louder levels, but did cough if pushed too hard.

They as mentioned earlier, sounded strikingly similar to the Leisure LD2 in many ways. (and why not, the drive components were very similar)

These differences were rather striking at low levels with the midrange and treble getting much better as the volume level increased, but the bass was not there period.  As always, no one brought along any bass test tones to see where there actually was response, but in that room if they hit 60 I would be surprised.

The Ref Ones in comparison must hit a solid 40 and have usable response down to 35.

How do they compare to the 626Rs?  Well while we didn't do a direct comparison, the 626Rs go even a pinch lower than the Refs in the bass dept, so there is not a contest there, but again to be fair to the GRs, they might have been damaged "and" they are also only a two way with a much smaller woofer.

The surprising thing was the high end.  Being a ribbon kinda guy, I like the delicacy, air and detail a ribbon can bring to a speaker.  It seems that this use of this tweeter somehow didn't do that.

I also suggested that we "raise" the speaker knowing that the 626Rs actually do sound better when the tweeter is "above" your ear, but even sitting low enough for this to be the case, did not seem to solve this problem.

I would look forward to Danny's report when this pair arrive back, and he examines them to see if they were representitive samples.

Now all that said, if they are representative, then even though I heard some shortcomings "in comparison" to the Ref Ones (which I consider to be "one" of the best speakers in the $1500 category),  the speakers we auditioned, when coupled with some brighter electronics, set up to the correct height, converged "on axis", and listened to at appropriate levels, in "the" sweet spot, might float a lot of audio boats.

John L played a female vocal cut that was quite pleasing on the GRs.

Driver integration seemed OK and the frequency range that was covered, sounded full and rich once the volume was up enough.

And we did not try it with a sub, which could have had the possiblities of taking some strain off the main drive team and allowing them to perform better.

And as always, no one should percieve these limited listening perceptions as what this speaker might sound like in your system or your room.

It is certainly a cool little speaker and it is rather brave of GR to send them around.  I think our evaluation was reasonable of what was in that room at that time. YMMV

[Mad DOg]

...And as always, no one should percieve these limited listening perceptions as what this speaker might sound like in your system or your room.

It is certainly a cool little speaker and it is rather brave of GR to send them around...

John,
I can certainly agree with your statements here. Kudos to Danny for allowing us to listen to his speakers and share our opinions good or bad.

[Sa-dono]

The speakers are first bagged.

Then wrapped in two layers of 1/2" thick bubble wrap all over except for the front of the speaker.

The front is protected further by a piece of cardboard with 1" worth of bubble wrap all around the edges to keep any pressure away from the drivers.

Then they are individually boxed.

They are then placed in a wood crate that is padded all over with 5/8" think poly Styrofoam.

How's that?

The packaging would usually be fine. The two times I would not see that as true is, 1) when people have to repackage the speakers up again to take them elsewhere, as the bubble wrap is not the easiest to work with, and 2) during these demos, as from what I could tell, it looked like most of the bubbles were already deflated..either due to the heat, prior use, "great" handling of UPS, or some combination of the above.

So the response of the Ref 1's are not tipped up in the highs?

Do you or anyone else have these measurements?

They sounded a little that way to me when I heard them, but due to the environment that I heard them in no judgement could be made with certainty because of other contributing factors.

And the amp was not running out of power?

Just looking for some explanation here. None of this sounds consistent with how they sound or have ever sounded here or anywhere else.

I have not found the highs of the Ref 1's tipped up. Measurements should be released soon..so we shall see for sure.

As far as your listening session of the Ref's, you have already admitted to the listening environment not being the best in your opinion, and if I am not mistaken, they were also used with the Outlaw Audio gear.

And the amps were definitely not running out of power. Even with the Criterion's lower efficiency, the amps used would easily be capable of cleanly driving the speakers to much higher SPLs.

You dissected his review?

Did you find fault with his opinions?

I only brought it up as an example of another person that made these comparisons but had a completely different view. All one more reason for me to believe something was wrong.

I for one feel every's opinions matter.

I am not saying his opinion does not matter at all, or that I find fault with his opinion. For his room, and the gear used, his opinion is probably dead on. Just like you said you were not able to get a good enough impression of the Ref's due to the environment, I do not think his experience was a telling tale of the potential of either speaker.


Regardless of everything else, thank you for sending these speakers out for people to audition, and I look forward to hearing from you and/or Randy as to the condition of the speakers.

[Danny Richie]

I have been doing some thinking on this deal and I have an idea what the problem might be.

It is kind of embarrassing but it fits with everything you guys have said.

When these speakers were first sent to Randy there was some damage in shipping to the network on one speaker.

The small inductor and first in the series came loose and began to bounce around in the box and or coarse pulled off the foil leads.

I had him send them back for repair.

I completely disassembled the damaged speaker to get the network out, dropped in a new foil inductor and put it all back together.

I then took an impedance response to confirm all was well.

Then shipped them back out to Randy.

I should have taken a response curve measurement too. It may have likely reveled a big reverse null suck out. I normally shoot a response curve and print it out on every speaker we build. The response curves for each of these speakers accompanied them as do all the speakers that leave here.

Meaning a woofer or a tweeter had its polarity reversed.  

From what you guys have said it sounds like one woofer is out of phase on the speaker that I repaired. The positive and negative was flipped.

This would cause the pair to have little bass at all as in the lower frequencies one speaker will cancel the other. It would also have little to no center focused image, even the highs would be hurt as the cross-over of 3,400Hz would be the area of the deepest suck out. So a real lack of highs on one side (that one speaker).

The clues from what you guys said are all there....

At lower listening levels, music from the Crits sounded like they were beaming out of 2 spots.

This is how speakers sound when a driver is out of phase.

i can see the Crits work well with brighter electronics and brighter room.

Highs in the lower treble region gone on one side.

the woofers of the Crits began bottoming out clearly showing signs of distress and compression at a mere 92-95dBs measured at the listening position.

They are playing hard but cancelling each other out.

the treble was less recessed and dark.

Hole in the response...

There was no weight even down to 55 Hz. I must say I was rather surprised. The bass was only mildly better than some of the budget speakers I have heard.

They were extremely congested and uninvolving at lower levels

They have "little bass" in comparison to the Ref Ones

They did sound much better at louder levels, but did cough if pushed too hard.

These differences were rather striking at low levels with the midrange and treble getting much better as the volume level increased, but the bass was not there period.

As always, no one brought along any bass test tones to see where there actually was response, but in that room if they hit 60 I would be surprised.

The lower frequencies would be hit the hardest as one speaker was cancelling the other. Only bass notes that would have been sent to only one channel would have had any authority. Anything they both played together would have been cancelled.

Dang.    I have a bad feeling that an error on my part wasted the time of several good people.

I am sure I made a mistake on this one, and if so, and I am quite sure now that I did, my apologies to those whose time it wasted.  

Randy, please send them right on back to me.

[doug s.]

danny,

one of the woofers being outta phase would make sense to me, based upon my experience w/the criterions - even tho i actually liked them a lot!     perhaps the subdued bass wasn't as much of an issue in my system, what w/my subs & all...  it was the lack of midrange/treble detail that got me, more than the bass.

but, i tink the phase may have been reversed, cuz i use a spectrum analyzer & pink noise generator to set my marchand's wolume pots every time i try different speakers, & i noticed a strong dip right around 3.5k-4k, someting i've never noticed before...

keep us posted,

doug s.

[Danny Richie]

Dang Doug,

If that pair was like that when you had them then it has been that way for a while. Further embarrassment...  

I have repaired that pair once before, I think. In fact I repaired them once before you got them.

It was the same problem. I just didn't use enough adhesive on the small inductor that was turned up on its side and it got knocked off to easily.

I might have fixed the good one the week before last and the other one might have been the problem. Good grief.

Further apologies all around.