[refmedia]

Well I have manged to squeeze in some tweak time on the system with great results. I must say golly gee whizz ah shucks this system has exceeded my expectations by a lot.

General impressions
The two largers indeed have deeper more articulate bottom octave performance than the Towers no big surprise there but the integration of the bass section in the Towers with the rest of the drivers is really something else.... so smooth. These speakers really sound nothing like what they look like. They have a clear, clean sound that is very controlled at every volume and frequency my room can take. The Towers with the subs has a deeper sound with cleaner low bass spl's with some compromises in bass coherency compared with the Towers by themselves. I would be happy with or with out the subs as the Towers really have nice tone by themselves.

Tweaks-
After much L-pad tweaking with the DEQ and various measurement microphones I have found a DPA 4006 and Scheops CMC 6's are way more accurate than the Behringer mic (big surprise huh). The Behinger mic yields a friendly but less than accurate results with these rather rudimentary measurements. After a bit of trial and error the DEQ is only dipping some room bumps with it's parametric, at -6db 71Hz and -3 db 141Hz. Other than that I have manged to dial in an extremely flat response with the L-pads alone. I cannot express enough how awesome it is to have that kind on control right on the speaker just amazing and works like a charm.

Pre-amps-
I need to play more here and may try the passive approach as I sure don't need any line gain. I am still using the Behringer Minimon and the darn little guy is very revealing of the cables, transports and amps I have tried.
This may well be the weak point in my system right now but I'm still trying so many things I may hold off for a bit.

Sources-
Tried the Ipod and the airport but prefer the sound of CD's or straight from a computer. I have tried about 5 CD and DVD players and find little difference going digital out to DEQ and more of a difference in the players DA's. I may dedicate a computer to audio playback but they all make more noise in my room than I like to hear for critical listening...

Amps-
I got a pair of the Behringer A500's and figured if I did not like them in the system I could use them with some PA speakers I have, well I may have to buy two more. Compared to the Bryston these hold up pretty well actually, the Bryston 9bst is a bit more controlled and "tube sounding" than the A500's as I had hoped and expected. The A500's though are just so much more dynamic on the Towers it is not even close. I am sure this is mostly due to more power but they really are astonishing considering the price of about $.40 a watt. They are easily as silent as the Bryston and seem just as revealing of system changes.

Cables-
First thing I am not a huge cable guy (though they do make a difference) but I have some pretty good cables around to swap about and the system is as revealing of cables as I have ever heard. Speaker cables like Analysis Plus Oval 9's cables are indeed smoother and more refined sounding than anything else I have tried including Monster reference 2.2's and various generic pro and consumer wire I have around. I am running balanced interconnects and really cannot tell much difference between the various Monster, ProCo and MIT XLR and TRS cables I have tried. Single ended cables are noticeably noisy compared to balanced in this system.

Current set up


DPA 4006 auto EQ curve and factory calibration response. Look at how the DEQ curve matches the lower curve on the mic plot!

[refmedia]

Hey where do I get the right "Rope Mortite" in the Bay Area?

[TheChairGuy]

Hey where do I get the right "Rope Mortite" in the Bay Area?

I only know two companies that make it...Mortite (the original) and Dennis.  I think Dennis is sold thru Ace Hardware stores in Bay area (I'm in Marin Co.).  I found it much more readily when I lived back east, but can still be found in 50% of the hardware stores around here.

Generally, it's in the Paint aisle, but not always.

[refmedia]

Hey where do I get the right "Rope Mortite" in the Bay Area?

I only know two companies that make it...Mortite (the original) and Dennis.  I think Dennis is sold thru Ace Hardware stores in Bay area (I'm in Marin Co.).  I found it much more readily when I lived back east, but can still be found in 50% of the hardware stores around here.

Generally, it's in the Paint aisle, but not always.

Thanks for the tip that helps a bunch .
The largers sound so great since day one, I may leave them alone. The largers on their sides need more putty this might be a fun experiment? The towers have putty that has hardend like a rock. They definitely need some more putty fortunately the sound even and smooth down deep just a tad woolly.
Thanks again Matt

[refmedia]

They putty is interesting to adjust and plays a huge roll in the placement of the speakers or subs. I personally love the way VMPS uses the slot loaded passives, like the L-pads tune to taste. John Casler might be able to chime in here as he must be a "putty master" by now with all his subs. Here are some pics of interesting set ups that may work better with more putty. Haven't done sweeps yet not sure I need too The bass is so resolving, clean and lush I can taste it in a couple of configurations. The subs always seems to sound better front firing on the same plane as the Towers IMHO. Wall and corner placements are okay and may go deeper but create an obvious delayed bass attack in my system.

[John Casler]

They putty is interesting to adjust and plays a huge roll in the placement of the speakers or subs. I personally love the way VMPS uses the slot loaded passives, like the L-pads tune to taste. John Casler might be able to chime in here as he must be a "putty master" by now with all his subs. Here are some pics of interesting set ups that may work better with more putty. Haven't done sweeps yet not sure I need too The bass is so resolving, clean and lush I can taste it in a couple of configurations. The subs always seems to sound better front firing on the same plane as the Towers IMHO. Wall and corner placements are okay and may go deeper but create an obvious delayed bass attack in my system.

Hi Refmedia,

Looks like your having too much fun up there. aa

I think you have the right idea, and it looks like you have been playing around with various orientations and positions.

I see from your posts that you understand that the putty needs change as you orient the Passive.  That is if the passive is firing up or down, the mass of the putty is greater, than if it is firing left or right.

I too like the drivers in the same plane with the mains woofers to improve phase coherence/alignment.

I have been toying with turning the Subs around, running them "out of phase" and see what that yields.

Have you tried having the PR facing each other (firing at each other) yet?

How about PR's firing at the ceiling?  Or the 12 and 15 firing at the ceiling?

Or behind your listening chair? facing away reverse phase to the front mains?

The combos are endless and all fun to try.  Right now my front largers are about 5 feet off the ground!!!!

By the way, I will be posting more details in a separate post, but Jan/Feb 07 issue of Sensible Sound has a "gushing" review of the RM40, but it references the Super Towers which the reviewer had auditioned "a quarter century" before.

[refmedia]

John it is truly mind boggling the amount of combinations you can do with four largers and some phase switches. I am sure you have created some bass sculptures of the finest order. Question does your crossover have continuously variable phase or a simple invert? The X over I am using only has invert.
A nice varable knob might be cool for slight offsets of the phase.
I have tried a few of your suggestions and even long and short walls in out of phase.

How about PR's firing at the ceiling?  Or the 12 and 15 firing at the ceiling?

The combos are endless and all fun to try.  Right now my front largers are about 5 feet off the ground!!!!

I have not tried the passives or actives up yet will do..... and all four at 5 feet

The things you can do with low end bass in a room is totally fascinating.
Sound effects like race cars cannons and helicopters when you charge the room in unusual ways is just breathtaking.
Not to mention certain music.
Thanks for the tips I will experiment!

[warnerwh]

If your bass is woolly you may want to try to take some puttty out.  It's a balance and most people tend to leave too much in. If you've already removed over a quarter inch diameter it may need more added. You'll learn to hear the difference with a little time. You'll also notice the lower midrange is also affected and this helps dial them in easier.

Glad you're happy with your 1,500 dollar mini monitors.   For that kind of money you got a steal 

[refmedia]

If your bass is woolly you may want to try to take some putty out.  It's a balance and most people tend to leave too much in. If you've already removed over a quarter inch diameter it may need more added. You'll learn to hear the difference with a little time. You'll also notice the lower midrange is also affected and this helps dial them in easier.

Glad you're happy with your 1,500 dollar mini monitors.   For that kind of money you got a steal 

Yea the STIII's are really cool I think they are classics. I am pretty sure and hope they need more putty in their current state the putty is as a hard as a rock (17 year old putty) and there is not very much left from what I can feel. This seems to only be a factor when they are by themselves without the subs anyway. With the subs there is no wool just sweet bass.

[warnerwh]

Have you checked the foam surrounds?  I'd definitely check them at this age. Push in on the passive radiator and the woofer on the front baffle should push out.  Brian will probably sell you the foam to repair them yourself if you need to, you seem like someone who could do this yourself. It's not very difficult. Also the active woofers will settle back into their normal position due to the magnets after you hold the passive in for several seconds, that is normal.

I have wondered if the putty loses weight with time due to moisture loss.  If it's as hard as a rock you may want to use something sharp very carefully to remove as much as you can. Then add it back with fresh. The stuff can be bought at the hardware store near window seal/putty also for a few bucks. If you can't find any let me know And I'll send you some.

I'm sort of jealous. If I had the money and saw those on Craig's list I may have bought them myself for our HT. They'r'e huge for our living room but I've been using large speakers in medium rooms with good results for years.

[James Romeyn]

Brian used to recommend placing the woofers a foot or so IFO the main speakers.

You may benefit from turning all the active cones (maybe even the mids?) exactly 180 degrees.  This is to invert the force of gravity over the past 20+ years, which has been acting on the cones.   You might need new 3/8" gasket tape.  The drivers are going to be quite difficult to detatch from the baffle after all these years.  The best method is probably to remove all screws except for two from each driver; those two loosen about 80%.  Place the speaker face down on the carpet.  Place wood blocks between the carpet & the baffle.  Over a day or two the drivers should all finally detatch.  The 2 screws will keep them fastened while you turn the speaker face up, then remove the screws & turn the drivers 180 degrees.  Check if new gasket tape is required, probably yes. 

As far as the passive, by now I'd suspect the surrounds & spiders are kinda weak, or worse.  The mass of the PR cone + the putty have acted on the spiders & surrounds, plus moisture absorption in the paper cone could be an issue.

Get "vitrified" new cones from Brian, should be priced reasonably.  I think performance may be improved, maybe a lot. 

If Brian remembers the mass loading on those that will be nice. 

For years I've recommending the following for new vmps owners: get two envelopes & two post-in-notes, write orange on an envelope & matching note, write yellow on the other envelope & note.  Attach one note to the lower back of each speaker.  As you remove putty from each speaker put the putty in the crease of a folded piece of paper, which goes in the matching envelope.  If/when you must return to oem, it's done in a jiffy.

We used crummy wood screws back then.  Get new grabbers from brian or hd.  IF YOU ARE NOT VERY CAREFUL & EXPERIENCED I VIRTUALLY GAURANTEE YOUR SCREWDRIVER WILL PUT A HOLE IN AT LEAST ONE DRIVER, MAYBE MORE.  BE VERY AFRAID, OR.......JUST IGNORE THIS ENTIRE POST.  PLEASE DON'T BLAME ME LATER FOR THIS.  YOU CAN AVOID IT, JUST DON'T BE SMOKING & RAPPING W/ A FRIEND OR LOOKING AT TV.  BE CAREFUL. 

While the appropriate woofer is removed (you should mark each woofer so you know which side was up or down), you must go in w/ Caig ProGold, pry open one cooling vent on each L-pad, & spray the contacts.  You will owe me a steak dinner when you hear the difference, esp after a quarter century.  Those contacts are oxidized, & not a little.  This is one of the best advantages of the OXO.

[tbrooke]

This has been a great thread. I recently ordered new 12 inch megawoofers for my pair of original subs and I appreciate these tips. I was wondering about whether there was some sort of gasket or sealing tape around the drivers that I need to replace or any other gotchas. I was also wondering about my 15 + year old passive radiators. I didn't order new ones. They passed the push pull test.  I'm hoping the new megas will give them a kick in the butt. Any other suggestions, tips etc re: driver replacement would be great
 

I was also wondering about crossovers etc. I have one old vmps crossover I don't use and I am using a Y adapter with my lexicon and I have the crossover set at 80 (If I remember right) then I go through a behringer 1124 to equalize them. I am thinking of improving on this and I wondered what others were doing. Anybody tried the Outlaw/Velodyne bass management system http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/sms1.html.

I'm thinking electronics because I'm not sure my wife would go with 5 foot in the air subs?

John you must be single or have understanding significant others.

Tom

[refmedia]

Thanks so much guys that goes to show experience counts for something and one of the reasons this forum is so cool is the sharing of experience by the participants. I am a self confessed lurker here on audiocircle for many years and learned so much from reading posts. I come from a pro sound background in studios and stages and I must say audiophiles know as much about listening or more than many so called engineers. Most pro sound forums are dull and lifeless compared with the worst audiophile forums IMHO.

Jim and Warnerwh I may have to drag a VMPS doctor in for a check up at some point. The Towers need a little TLC and a driver rotation as you suggest. Please don't get me wrong they sound incredible but I think I am listening to the tip of the iceberg. I could do a driver rotation but I am the one who sticks the screw driver through the driver. Plus I want to replace/fix one of the terminal cups that has some minor issues and or put in new vitrified passives. The only airleak and it is really small comes from a terminal cup for the Mid/Tweets on the left speaker, I sealed it up with some tape. The surrounds on the passives seem tight and they push the in and out opposite of the active drivers as they are supposed to. The putty is kind of a mess on the Towers not the neat spiral that is on the largers.
Any hoo thanks so much for the response this is such great product support for a second owner of a now vintage product. I really appreciate all the valuable help!
Thanks again Matt

[warnerwh]

Tom: For speaker gasket alot of people just go to the hardware store and buy weatherstripping. Get the stuff that isn't real thick and about 3/8" wide or a half inch if on a 12" or larger woofer.

Speaker drivers don't really wear out. If they have foam surrounds, a very good material for a surround btw, you can replace them yourself or have someone do it for you. One way to tell if you need them other by pushing in the passive radiator is to just put your finger against the surround. If it crumbles at all it needs replacing. Fortunately these days foam surrounds are made with additives that make the life expectancy closer to 20 years rather than 10-15.

[zapper7]

Hey refmedia,

I see you are using Behringer A500 amps for the subs, how is that working out for power/control/quality of bass sound?

Thinking of using them for my patio ceiling sub and bass drivers in my main room speakers.

That is alot of speakers in 1 room , coooool

[refmedia]

Hey refmedia,

I see you are using Behringer A500 amps for the subs, how is that working out for power/control/quality of bass sound?

Thinking of using them for my patio ceiling sub and bass drivers in my main room speakers.

That is a lot of speakers in 1 room , coooool

Actually I have the a500's on the Towers believe it or not. They are not recommended for a 4ohm load in bridged mono and the my subs are 4ohm. I am using them as 500 into 8ohm and they sound fantastic for the money with surprisingly good build quality. I would recommend them very highly for a Patio system. I have had many fine SS amps in my room and these really hold up well. Not as refined for sure as others but at 1/100 the cost I think it is a no brainer. No other amps that I can find deliver balanced connections (which I must have) and 500 watts into 8ohm without a fan for even close to $200 used. Fortunately 500 into 8 happens to be the power rating of the towers too.

[zapper7]

I had a Carver ZR1600 which was my first pro amp, and it was great, 18A fuse  and a ton of power, but alittle to expensive for a patio system.

I am also looking at behringer's 1500 and 2500 incase more power is required , but it doesn't seem like it.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get them and for how much?
Thanks J

[refmedia]

I had a Carver ZR1600 which was my first pro amp, and it was great, 18A fuse  and a ton of power, but alittle to expensive for a patio system.

I am also looking at behringer's 1500 and 2500 incase more power is required , but it doesn't seem like it.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get them and for how much?
Thanks J

A500 street price is $200 each I got the them from http://bswusa.com/main.asp
I have used so many pro amps and most are pretty good, Carver is good stuff but has fans like all the others. A good friend works for a great company http://www.labgruppen.com/ they have an amp that does 6500 watts into 2ohm per channel and that is 13,000 stereo... yea that is 13 thousand watts in two rack spaces! I may talk to him about getting one of their smaller ones. They also make high powered 4 channel ones which could be cool.

[John Casler]

John it is truly mind boggling the amount of combinations you can do with four largers and some phase switches. I am sure you have created some bass sculptures of the finest order. Question does your crossover have continuously variable phase or a simple invert? The X over I am using only has invert.
A nice varable knob might be cool for slight offsets of the phase.
I have tried a few of your suggestions and even long and short walls in out of phase.

How about PR's firing at the ceiling?  Or the 12 and 15 firing at the ceiling?

The combos are endless and all fun to try.  Right now my front largers are about 5 feet off the ground!!!!

I have not tried the passives or actives up yet will do..... and all four at 5 feet

The things you can do with low end bass in a room is totally fascinating.
Sound effects like race cars cannons and helicopters when you charge the room in unusual ways is just breathtaking.
Not to mention certain music.
Thanks for the tips I will experiment!

Hi Matt,

Yes my x-over has "variable" phase, as well as several other great controls (NHT X-2)

For a lot of "experimentation" it is a great help.

All 4 of my LARGERs are not at 5 feet, only the fronts.  The rears (behind my listening chair) are still on the floor.

I had a long conversation with Kevin Voeks about a year ago, who has the luxury of HARMON intl's money to experiment with, and I told him I was thinking of raising one pair off the floor, and he said they were experimenting with subs in opposite corners of the room (rears in the corners on the floor, and fronts in the corners, but at the ceiling) and at varying heights.  The idea was to load the room with bass energies from significantly differing source positions to alter the paths and room reactions, so that cancellations and peaks were different, which helps in smoothing the responses in a particular area.

As well I am single and can "get away" with most any tweak without concern to WAF

[refmedia]

Yes my x-over has "variable" phase, as well as several other great controls (NHT X-2)

For a lot of "experimentation" it is a great help.

All 4 of my LARGERs are not at 5 feet, only the fronts.  The rears (behind my listening chair) are still on the floor.

I had a long conversation with Kevin Voeks about a year ago, who has the luxury of HARMON intl's money to experiment with, and I told him I was thinking of raising one pair off the floor, and he said they were experimenting with subs in opposite corners of the room (rears in the corners on the floor, and fronts in the corners, but at the ceiling) and at varying heights.  The idea was to load the room with bass energies from significantly differing source positions to alter the paths and room reactions, so that cancellations and peaks were different, which helps in smoothing the responses in a particular area.

As well I am single and can "get away" with most any tweak without concern to WAF

That NHT is a cool box I did not realize it was balanced.. I may have to look into that hmmm 
So the fronts are up high at different heights and the rears are low and reverse phase, interesting.
That must toss a huge bass image in your room, it is like sound painting with bass.

I may have to be careful with the tweaks but My wife use to work for Meyer Sound so she totally gets the big speaker thing, I am so lucky .

I think the largers are the coolest way to go cause you can experiment more than if you do infinite baffle or in wall.