How to improve the sound of your CDs

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ehider

How to improve the sound of your CDs
« on: 12 Jul 2003, 10:23 pm »
:rules:  Here's a Ripley's believe it or not story that I've told MANY times and will tell one last time to all:

 :violin: There is at least one CD burner that stands above the masses in terms of sound quality as it has the ability to make recordings that sound BETTER BETTER BETTER than the originals!!!! It is the Pioneer PDR-W739. I understand the 839 from Pioneer also can do this trick too but I have not heard any burned copies from that unit.

 :idea: Now I know this whole statement about making better sounding copies than the originals sounds a bit ludicrous. But it is true none the less. There are over 2 dozen hard core audiophiles who (like myself), who have bought this burner just because of it's "magic" capabilities. Recently I had 4 "dis-believers" over to my house who were floored that they picked the copies (in a double blind comparison mind you) as the best sounding discs.  :P (There is more depth and air around instruments and voices with the soundfield having less of a "picket fence" type of soundstage i.e. the copies sound more analog and less digital! )

  :banghead: I've posted this information MANY times in different threads only to be attacked for it's impossibility! I'm an Electrical Engineer myself so I fully understand how crazy this sounds  :o . There are some speculative ideas here such as reduced jitter from the original CD to the copy (there is inherent jitter in the original CD that can theoretically be removed?) I've also been told by some optical experts that burned CD's could possibly be easier to read than the originals due to their superior optical properties. There are many more hypothesis but I could care less to find the truth.  :nono: There is only ONE truth here: This is a pretty big breakthrough that every high end guy should be taking note of (and buying into - literally!!!)  Of sourse many would rather attack ME and poo poo the technical impossiblity of making a "better sounding" digital copy  :duel: .

 :hyper: Run, don't walk to get one of these burners!! It's only a matter of time before none are left on the used market. Pioneer "upgrades" their units every year. Whatever magic they are doing in their burning transfer may be lost in their next years product offering.  :nono:  :nono: It makes NO SENSE whatsoever to spend thousands of dollars on cables or electronics and not buy one of these burners! Is anyone hearing me! This is the front end source! You cannot create more space or dimensionality out of your Compact Disc itself (you can only preserve, modify or color the sound). Harmnic, soundfield and dimensional preservation are what high end audio is all about IMHO :guitar:  :drums:  :D

What if there was a way to get CD's that sounded closer to the master tape :?:  Guess what :?:  THERE IS :!: It's called the Pioneer PDR-W739 burner!!! :thumb:

Chops

How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #1 on: 15 Jul 2003, 10:18 pm »
Hmm, the words "Signal Loss" comes to mind.

vdossant

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The magical CD burner
« Reply #2 on: 18 Jul 2003, 09:31 pm »
How does it sound as a player?  What formats does it play?[/color] :scratch:

WerTicus

How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #3 on: 20 Jul 2003, 05:57 am »
We need more emoticons!

catapult

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It's not a myth - CDR works
« Reply #4 on: 4 Aug 2003, 07:52 pm »
In the following article, recording engineer extraordinaire Roger Nichols tells how the pressing plant was introducing jitter onto one of his Steely Dan CDs, causing him to tear his hair out. The master disc sounded fine, the pressing sounded like crap. He could burn the bad pressing to CDR on his laptop and it cleaned it up making it sound fine again.

The answer for him - play power politics with the honchos at the record label to let him use a different pressing plant.

The answer for us - burn them to CDR. Any competent computer CDR burner and software should be able to do the job.

Jitter article:
http://www.rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ_2000_02.html

Roger Nichols' home page:
http://www.rogernichols.com/

Marbles

How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #5 on: 4 Aug 2003, 08:18 pm »
Catapult, welcome to AC!

GREAT first post...really interesting article.

Malcolm Fear

How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #6 on: 4 Aug 2003, 09:06 pm »
I've improved my CDR experience by using black cd's. I got this idea from Genesis Loudspeakers. An interesting article at

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Black_CDsII.pdf

catapult

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How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #7 on: 5 Aug 2003, 03:05 am »
Thanks, Marbles. Long time lurker, first (well, second now  :D ) time poster. Looks like y'all have done a good job of picking up the HD torch and running with it!

I do think Ehider's on the right track. A lot of what you pay for in the megabuck CD transports is a big cache and reclocking of the (perhaps) jittery signal encoded on the CD. You can save a lot of bucks by simply making a CDR that caches the whole CD on your hard drive, reclocks it, and eliminates that jitter.

Thump553

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How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #8 on: 5 Aug 2003, 02:54 pm »
A very intriguing concept-are you saying that the $40 CDRW burners we have do a better job of creating the CDs then the megabuck equipment used at the mastering plant? I suppose its possible-back when vinyl ruled, its quality varied drastically from label to label (and pre- and post- oil embargo).  

I'm certainly no expert on this, but how does extracting the CD to your hard drive eliminate the jitter created in the manufacturing process?

If this is true, it should be relatively simple to upgrade your CDs.  Burn an image to your hard drive, then burn a CDR from that image.

catapult

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How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #9 on: 5 Aug 2003, 09:53 pm »
Quote
are you saying that the $40 CDRW burners we have do a better job of creating the CDs then the megabuck equipment used at the mastering plant?


Well, that's the gist of what Roger Nichols says in that article written in 2000. It sounds like the quality can vary quite a bit depending on the plant and how much attention the producer pays. You'd hope that eventually they'd all get it right but that might explain why some newer CDs sound better than some of the old ones -- better equipment. We can upgrade our stuff for peanuts as the technology advances but I suppose they'd be naturally hesitant to spend millions upgrading theirs.

Quote
how does extracting the CD to your hard drive eliminate the jitter created in the manufacturing process?


The assumption is that the electronics at the plant created the 1s and 0s from the master analog tape with proper timing so all the correct information is there. Something mechanical happens producing the die - laser burning, plating, whatever - that messes up that timing. A normal CD player takes the 1s and 0s as the disk delivers them so, if the timing is off, it sounds bad. Your computer reads all the 1s and 0s and stores them in a file assuming they are equally spaced in time. It doesn't care about the mechanical timing errors on the disk. Then, when you burn your CDR, the jitter on it will only depend on the inherent jitter of your burner.

Jay S

How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #10 on: 6 Aug 2003, 01:38 am »
There are 2 of the Pioneers on ebay right now.  One auction ends in 2h 38 min and the current bid is $137.50.  I did a quick search online and the chepest new price I saw (on Yahoo shopping) was $500.  

Someone grab this!  

I will have to a bit more research.  If these things are multivolt (I need 220v) then I may pick one up.

Phat Phreddy

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How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #11 on: 20 Aug 2003, 01:28 pm »
I have some input on this topic as we have copvered this ground at AVS a few times....

Just so you know my bias (and can laugh at me all you want) I am quite the proponent of PC based audio playback and as we are now working on digital room correction filters and pre pro elimination there is a huge potential for sonic achievements in the same way HTPC's have already proven in video playback.  I dont think the analogue sections of even the best soundcards are as good as the best mega buck equipment but I do believe (we have had lots of shootouts and ABX blinds etc) that a RME or Lynx card is within a tiny percentage of equipment 10x its price.

That said...

Nearly all CD players are synchronous reading devices... if they dont get a reliable read they interpolate data to error correct.  The system is then slaved to this timing clock throught the rest of the signal chain (if using the device as a transport this means the SPDIF gets passed from here on with each stage / connection susceptable to jitter)...

In a PC based playback system the data transfer over the IDE/SCSI cable from either the hard disk or the CD drive is an asynchronous packet protocol. On both media reads can fail at which point the controller of those devices or the OS will initiate a retry. This is one main benefit of using a computer as a playback device. Most offboard players will just interpolate when they miss a sector.

Any memory copies applied in moving the data from the driver into the address space of the user process are asynchronous.

The calls from the user process into the audio susbsystem are asynchronous. Copying the data from the user memory into the driver memory is asynchronous. And finally moving the samples from the driver memory over the PCI bus to the sound cards memory is asynchronous.

Every time you use an asynchronous transaction like the ones I describe to move around digital audio samples with a bit perfect copy all jitter is removed and you start all over.

Once the samples are in the set of buffers on the sound card they are being played back at a synchronous rate derived from the oscillator on the sound card. This is the only source of jitter you can see from your computer's sound card.

This can clearly explain why black CDR's may sound better than the original or that a particular CDR drive can write a cleaner CDR that is easier to read on a synchronous audio CD player... This also explains why some of our users swear they can get a better representation from a ripped file than from thier synchronous transports.

I know PC's are not considered true HiFi but thats due (IMHO) to 99% of people never hearing a silent PC set up with ASIO output (to avoid windows Kmixer bit mangling the source) with a good consumer soundcard... Every CD you listen to has been through computer systems repeatedly and I for one am happy with my M-Audio setup and am waiting for a 1010 like replacement in an outboard rackmount before I think about upgrading...

tmd

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How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #12 on: 24 Aug 2003, 09:51 pm »
Phreddy,
Thank you for clearing that up for me at last. I have been looking for months for a good comparison of PC and conventional playback. I am with you on the relative advantages of the PC. I am definately going to try this out sometime soon.
Can you post details of your system as it stands now and any info on where you got the gear to build it?
Thanks, Neil.

Phat Phreddy

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How to improve the sound of your CDs
« Reply #13 on: 25 Aug 2003, 04:54 am »
Niel, I would be happy to go into a lot more detail... However hijacking this thread is probably inappropriate... There is a 'square' circle (do they mean to imply we are all geeks  :D ) here on AC and also far more traffic and knowledge is available in the HTPC section of www.AVSForum.com which I also moderate...

Any direct questions you may have I am availble by PM email / ICQ / etc...

How is the the emerald Isle doing back there (I am a bera man by descent), had any of that heatwave ??