[scrapiron]

So my thoughts on my 8" Hemptones:

I have the older style Hemptones with the driver on the "short" side. I upgraded to the Mk.II drivers and burned them in (facing each other, one speaker out of phase). I piled on the heavy blankets and pillows. I used some Rap to get those drivers moving (and since I'm not a big Rap fan I wouldn't care if I got sick of the songs .

After about 20 hours, all of a sudden the bass showed up. Hello bass. After 100 hours, off come the blankets. Now this is where I go silly. I switch out speaker cable. Yep, I mean, why be rational?

I was using Mapleshade Double Golden Helix Plus- a very nice cable and IMHO, better than the Anti-Cables (which I found dark). Louis had suggested DNM Reson cable, so I called Creston Funk and talked to him for a while. We both came to the conclusion to try Eichmann bullets on the amp side and wire the DNM directly to the drivers, bypassing the Cardas terminals and internal wiring. I threaded the cable through the port.

Okay, so then I listened. Where did the bass go? My wife said the sound was fatiguing and bright. I checked the polarity, yep, correct. Speakers were toed in right at me, behind me, then in front of me- nothing was working.

I moved the speakers to about 2 feet from the side walls, and about 3 feet from the back wall with a VERY slight toe in. Currently the speakers are on books 13" high with a very slight angle up (Noel, I'm ready for those stands- ship'em! The distance between the speakers is 8 feet. Okay! Now we have imaging! And after about 10- 15 more hours, the bass is back.

I think that my expectations were probably out of line for the cable and bass. I was expecting some 30 Hz notes or something... I believe I also needed to "adjust" to the DNM cable- it's a different sound- neutral, maybe a bit flat, lots of PRaT, but it does convey the sense of the music, my toes are tapping for sure. I've got a test tone disc and I'll measure just how much bass I'm getting, it still seems a bit "light". I do have a sub that integrates nicely, so I'm not too worried.

I'll probably switch back the Mapleshade cables mid next week and see what the difference is. I can recommend working with Creston (his web site is www.concertsoundusa.com) he has a deep knowledge of music and he website has many good articles. Louis, as always, is a pleasure to deal with.

The differences between the Mk.I and Mk.II drivers- the latter drivers image much better; voices sound more realistic; a little more sparkle in the highs.

So those are my ramblings-
Skot

FYI- my room is 14' wide by 21' long with 8' ceilings. Speakers are on the short wall and I sit on a couch smack dab in the middle of the room.

[jrebman]

We both came to the conclusion to try Eichmann bullets on the
amp side and wire the DNM directly to the drivers, bypassing the Cardas terminals and internal wiring. I threaded the cable through the port.

Those ports are very precisely tuned and shaped and when you put something in them you're definitely going to have some sort of ill effect.

If you really want to do this right, drill a hole large enough for the new cable in the back of the speaker -- probably just under the current binding posts -- and run your new cable in that way.  Probably wouldn't hurt to seal it in place with a touch of RTV or other silicone sealant.  If you can, drill the cleanest hole possible with a drill press and something like a Forstner bit and then if you remove the cable later, you can get a nice wood plug and silicone it in place.  Ports should always be left as they are unless you really know what you're doing and have the test gear to see what the effects are in real time.

I am all in favor of captive cabling myself, but it does take some effort to do it correctly.  Also, for best results, crimp and don't solder the speaker connections..

-- Jim
 

[-Richard-]

"Also, for best results, crimp and don't solder the speaker connections..."

Glad you mentioned that detail, Jim, I much prefer it on aesthetic grounds
as well as engineering considerations.

I was once going to build an amp that required a great deal of internal soldering...
which of course they all do... and found out that "normal" solder was incredibly toxic
and contributed to several really severe illnesses... there is a movement now to use an
entirely different approach to soldering that is supposed to be less toxic... I forgot what
they call it, but I seem to remember the idea of cold soldering.

In any case I much prefer the crimped approach... it makes sense.

Warm Regards ~ Richard

[jrebman]

Richard,

There is "cold soldering or welding" which is essentially the same as high-pressure crimping.  There is also this kind of soldering iron out there known as "cold heat", which is really somewhat of a misleading phrase.  With the cold heat soldering tools, the joint is still actually heated, but the tip cools very quickly once the tip is removed from the workpiece.

In these tools, the tip is actually to electrodes separated by a very small gap and then internally there is some circuitry to reduce the voltage from the batteries down and to increase the current -- for short duration and fairly light duty cycles.  These things use standard alkaline AA batteries -- at least the one I have does.  These seem to be useful only on very small gauge conductors that are soldered to things with very low thermal mass.  Otherwise the heat needed would be too great for them to handle as it would be conducted away from the joint faster than it can build up to the temperature required for alloying the metals.  There is supposedly a newer, better, cold heat tool out there, but I haven't tried it yet -- may be very suitable for solering IC leads to connectors like Eichman bullet plugs, etc, but not for speaker wire to speaker terminals or spades, bananas, etc.

I use a variant of this for most of my soldering, which is a resistance soldering station made by American Beauty.  In this setup there is a variable, very low voltage, very high current transformer (not unlike a small arc welder supply) and a pair of tweezer-like electrodes and a pair of thick cables connecting the electrodes to the transformer box.  The operation is very simple: you place the tweezer tips (electrodes) on either side of the wire or joint you are soldering, get your solder into position, then step on a foot switch to start the current flow, and when the solder flows, and the joint has reached the right temperature, you take your foot off the switch and when the joint cools, you pull the stainless steel electrodes away from the joint.

The advantage of this system is that you can produce a very high temperature very quickly and keep the heat very localized.

When I was a working engineer back in the 80s, we used to use these to solder strain gauges, which are very susceptible to heat damage.

As a blind person I prefer this system because I can feel the joint and the soldering tip when it is cool and line everything up before applying heat.  Then because of many years of experience, I can both feel the solder when it is flowing at the right rate, and also the smell lets me know when the joint is completely and properly alloyed.  I still use a conventional soldering station from time to time, and there are a whole set of non-visual techniques I use for that, but I much prefer the resistance method for many reasons, and use it whenever possible.

I don't recommend this for rank beginners because the intensity of the heat is such that you can easily reach temperatures that will melt your wire or connector, or lift a PCB pad.  Like any tool, when used properly, it can make life much easier, but when not, you can do some serious damage -- see chain saw for example .

-- Jim

[-Richard-]

Thanks Jim, for a most concise and well thought out overview of the art of
soldering.

Being sight challenged, and possessing the high level of skills that you have and
are able to implement, you would certainly make a marvelous teacher.

Someone in your area should organize a workshop where you can demonstrate
these soldering techniques to people wishing to try their hand at do-it-yourself
amplifier building projects, so they can learn the highest art of soldering
from a master.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[scrapiron]

Those ports are very precisely tuned and shaped and when you put something in them you're definitely going to have some sort of ill effect.

Really? I guess I can believe that something that small could affect the sound. DNM cable is very thin and flat. I could drill the cabinets, but without a drill press, I'd be taking some chances.

On the solder- I'm glad to hear that I won't have to solder. One, cause I've never done it and two, If I need to change something (cable, driver, speaker placement), I still have the flexibability.

Thanks-
Skot

[schotter]

hey,
I have listened to the old DNM cable (3 strands, thin solid core, oldskool grey IBM style look) for many years, not questioning it since my friend, the sound 'pope' prescribed it almost twenty years ago. Recently it got a bit short so I bought new DNM Reson as replacement...to a similar effect you experienced. Loss of bass, thin and bright even after quite some break-in. The old one was not any thicker but sounded like 'more'. And then I got 47Labs superthin OTA cable...with lots of bass. Whatever the theory, trusting your ears isn't silly at all.

[konut]

Those ports are very precisely tuned and shaped and when you put something in them you're definitely going to have some sort of ill effect.-- Jim
 

I'm curious as to what Louis will have to say about this.

[Louis O]

Many thanks for the great posts,

My DNM is about 2 years old and I don't have a problem with it at all. It's the clear jacket with the red and blue leads.

Unless they changed something or went to a different wire vender it's pretty hard to figure out. I have experimented with the concept of solid core copper not twisted in the run and usually the twist is what decreases bass. In my version it was just for fun, but I ran RG58 solid core copper (be careful as a lot of these cables has a steel core) side by side and had great results in bass. Also I do like crimped connections as well.

Hi scrapiron,

Call me and I can help you out with the R cables if you return the DNM.

Thanks again,
Louis

[Louis O]

Hi,

Well I played a bit with the DNM and it's not good to direct connect them.  I know Creston advises it, but they don't sound good at all this way and just use them from amp to binding posts.

Thanks again,
Louis

[scrapiron]

Well Hello from the past! I just poked around and saw I missed Louis' last post. So I can try and connect the DNM to the Cardas posts. What difference should I expect to hear? The cable from the posts to the speaker are silver-looking standed wire.

Thanks Louis.

-Skot

[schotter]

Well I played a bit with the DNM and it's not good to direct connect them. 

hmmm..now that makes me think...Do you think this can be the case with other cables or is it a DNM treat? I wired my OTA (47 labs) cable directly to the drivers just when I got them, thinking this with a crimped connection to the drivers can only be the best possible way. Never heard before and after in my own room.

[scrapiron]

Well, I hooked up the DNM to the Cardas posts and hooked up the internal wiring. All connections were treated with Caig's Deoxit Pro (pro gold).

I had to flip the speaker cable, so bare ends are at the amp end and bananas at the speaker end.

Since I haven't been using the internal wiring, the sound has been a bit harsh. It's beginning to settle in however- my first impression is that there is an 'airier' sound, more highs, images are a bit better defined. Oh, one thing I've noticed is that images are now more towards the right side. It may be that the recordings were made that way as well.

I'll run them this way and in about 100 hrs, maybe hook them direct again to see if there's a difference.

Louis, any thoughts?

[schotter]

sorry, no Louis here but...
I will probably try the speaker cables-to-binding-post-to-stock internal cabling whenever I have the time just to see if this might battle the remaining harshness in my system. Even though direct to drivers would make most sense since there is less in the signal path...but again, that's just theory, right? Only time I heard my XRS with stock internal cables was at Louis' and that sounded 'rounder' to my ears...but it's probably more my room than cabling.

some say flipping the cable after it had been burned in is not a good idea since it 'becomes directional', I never tetsted this though.

Let us know your results after going back to direct, I am interested to hear if you hear differences...

[Louis O]

Hi scrapiron and shotter,

I've tried this with the DNM a long time as well as another with the same setup and maxhemps and we had the same conclusion. This was the harshness. After I went back and used the internal wiring it went away. I kept it this way since. I wish I let it run in more to hear if they settled in. I use no solder and the resistance from the binding post may be the key.

Thanks,
Louis