[elg2001]

Hi,
   CES is over, and you mentioned to me that you would have some actual bench test measurements of your VDA•2 DAC. When will those be available?

[CIAudio]

CES is over, and you mentioned to me that you would have some actual bench test measurements of your VDA•2 DAC. When will those be available?

Will probably get to it early next week...still catching up from being at CES for a week.

[elg2001]

Sounds good. I'll be looking forward to it

[CIAudio]

Here are the measurement graphs you requested...
These were taken from a random sample during production testing today(cold/using standard p/s).

[elg2001]

THANKS SO MUCH (!!!) for getting these to me. I have a few more questions:

1) what's the difference between the red and blue lines in the graphs? looks like Left and Right audio channels, but I'm not totally sure based on the legend.

2) How were these results measured? Can you go into a little detail? Bench test? Simulation? etc...

3) Is "Noise floor" the same as signal-to-noise ratio (SnR)?

4) Do those results change if you run the tests at 96 khz? I'll be running the unit at 96 khz primarily, so I'd like to see those results as well. I hope I'm not being too picky

5) Were these test run with the VAC-1 power supply? With the VRX-1 balanced cables? If not on either one, how much improvement would I see from adding them?

[CIAudio]

Noise floor and s/n are essentially the same thing and do not change when measured at 96k. Blue is left channel, red is right channel. Measurements were taken from a random unit during production testing yesterday using an Audio Precision System 2 Cascade Analyzer (the audio industry standard).

The measurements were taken single-ended using the standard supply, noise performance is slighly better with VAC-1 and/or VRX-1 cables.

[Psychicanimal]

Noise floor and s/n are essentially the same thing and do not change when measured at 96k. Blue is left channel, red is right channel. Measurements were taken from a random unit during production testing yesterday using an Audio Precision System 2 Cascade Analyzer (the audio industry standard).

The measurements were taken single-ended using the standard supply, noise performance is slighly better with VAC-1 and/or VRX-1 cables.

Damn!

Are your cholesterol & blood sugar as good?

***

[elg2001]

How about freq response and THD+N at 96 kHz ?

I'm not being picky, I'm just being honest: I can't justify spending this much money (DAC + Power Supply + Balanced Cables) without seeing measurements in the mode that I will run this unit most frequently, namely 96 kHz. If you provide this, I will strongly consider purchasing this despite the cost.

[CIAudio]

How about freq response and THD+N at 96 kHz ?

I'm not being picky, I'm just being honest: I can't justify spending this much money (DAC + Power Supply + Balanced Cables) without seeing measurements in the mode that I will run this unit most frequently, namely 96 kHz. If you provide this, I will strongly consider purchasing this despite the cost.

At 96k, frequency response is extended and THD+N stays about the same.

[Psychicanimal]

If you provide this, I will strongly consider purchasing this despite the cost.

Dude, I have no idea what you are talking about (I'm digital illiterate), but I'll tell you a little story aboust cost/performance ratios:

A friend brought over a $4700 Audio Logic DAC and my little $350 CI DAC-1 (with the wall-wart power supply) was so close to it  (about 90%) it was not funny.  My friend sold the Audio Logic.

***

[elg2001]

I'm not looking at it in a relative sense. I'm looking at it in an absolute one. Upwards of $600 for a DAC is ALOT of money for just a dac. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying it's not a great price/performance ratio. I'm saying $600+ is ALOT of money.

As for the graphs, I'd like to see them at 96 kHz if possible. You can always put the performance graphs up on the website to show the performance of the unit. I hope you can understand that this is a big purchase, but I'll be willing to spend it if the performance is up to my expectations for this much money.

Most audio information provided by companies is full of fluff, so I hope you can understand why I'm a bit skeptical of the 96 kHz performance. Don't get me wrong: I definetely trust you, otherwise I wouldn't consider spending this much money at all. However, I need to make my own decision based on objective performance data, especially considering the cost. This is not a spur-of-the-moment purchase.

[topround]

Dude,
Relax, $ 600 IS a lot of money but this Dac delivers its money worth!
I have had 3 dac's and for the money this is probably the best out there

[brj]

$600 for a DAC is an average to below average price for a high end DAC.

I agree that there are many, many DACs priced above $600, but I suspect that the prices of other DACs weren't his reference.  "A lot" of money is really going to be a personal measure unique to each person, perhaps most often referenced to your own level of disposable income or perhaps your set level of indulgence in this crazy hobby.  One person's definition of entry level may be another person's definition of unobtainable.

Audio is one of the more difficult hobbies I've encountered for people intent on determining the best bang for their given level of "bucks"... the amount of effort it takes to separate out the well marketed from the well designed at a given price point can be downright painful!


Nice plots, Dusty!  I wish more vendors would provide such data...


PA, which Audio Logic DAC did your friend compare to, and how resolving was the rest of the system used to compare them?

Thanks!

[CIAudio]

As for the graphs, I'd like to see them at 96 kHz if possible. You can always put the performance graphs up on the website to show the performance of the unit. I hope you can understand that this is a big purchase, but I'll be willing to spend it if the performance is up to my expectations for this much money.

Sorry but I just don't have the time to do it for you. We have only 1 Audio Precision and it is used for production testing (running a series of preset pass/fail tests). For me to make these graphs, I must stop production testing and run each specific test you request, then print them, import them to photoshop and create images, then post them. If you would have been more specific, I would have done them at 96k the first time. Sorry I can't accommodate you, but we simply have too much going on to stop everything to do specific tests for you.

[Nick V]

This discussion seems a little bit ridiculous to me. The numbers posted are pretty much perfect  and the DAC will only perform better at 96K. This seems to be one of, if not THE best DAC's available for the price. Do you really believe that a company is going to sweat ONE purchase at this level? CIaudio providess some of the best price/performance available and you've already been provided with comprehensive bench test graphs and you're still sitting on the fence. If you're not going to purchase the dac after all of this, you were probably never willing to purchase it in the first place. Try to find another DAC anywhere near this price range with this kind of disclosure and these kind of performance numbers. I don't usually make it my buisness to stick up for a manufacturer but this seems comical. I use one of Dusty's products (Monolithic PA-1/HC-1B) and for the price it absolutely trumps the pretenders. Good luck on your DAC purchase, but if you're not happy with the VDA-2 for the price, you'll never be happy with any piece of audio gear...

[Psychicanimal]

$600 for a DAC is an average to below average price for a high end DAC.

I agree that there are many, many DACs priced above $600, but I suspect that the prices of other DACs weren't his reference.  "A lot" of money is really going to be a personal measure unique to each person, perhaps most often referenced to your own level of disposable income or perhaps your set level of indulgence in this crazy hobby.  One person's definition of entry level may be another person's definition of unobtainable.

Audio is one of the more difficult hobbies I've encountered for people intent on determining the best bang for their given level of "bucks"... the amount of effort it takes to separate out the well marketed from the well designed at a given price point can be downright painful!


Nice plots, Dusty!  I wish more vendors would provide such data...


PA, which Audio Logic DAC did your friend compare to, and how resolving was the rest of the system used to compare them?

Thanks!

Check this statement out!

"In head-to-head tests, our Planar Digital VI (interconnect ) improved the sound of a mundane $1,000 DAC so much that it trounced a world referrence $10,000 DAC fed by a Nordost Valhalla IC."

--from the Mapleshade catalog.

How about this for a snobbish & insulting attitude?  Shoot him, Dusty!!!

*****

How resolving is my system?

Well, phonostage, passive & DAC are Dusty's/Greg, transport is a Dan Wright modded belt drive; Dan Wright modded Marchand X-9 Deluxe x-over, four monoblocks: Marantz Ma-5 Esotec (Dusty's reference ) for the Dan Wright modded mini-monitors and Kenwood L-07M for the subs.  All this preceded by some $7K (list) worth of power filtration stuff, based on 220/110V stepdown iso transformers.  All IC's are Midnight Silver Edition (Ridge Street Audio)with a VH Pulsar digital cable. There's non-resonant, Caribbean Moca wood boards throughout. In my system, you can tell the difference between different facilities' cryo treatment of the same model power cord.  At the same time, the system can successfully play any recording of any musical genre regardless of recording quality (read: I like to play my 70's junkie salsa records--the street guys w/ the Afros, leisure suits & high rise shoes who recorded in a garage cause they had no money and were always high on heroine & other goodies).

Oh, the TT:  The Creature on Steroids!!! 

***

That guy isn't going to buy.  Hey, I know what being in a pinch is!  Dusty knows I'm on unemployment w/benefits, 'furlough', had a nasty surgery and I don't have the $$$ for the outboard power supply--or to upgrade to the new DAC.  It will happen sometime...

***

[kkc]

elg2001, CIAudio has a one month return guarantee.  Why don't you buy the DAC, try it out and chances are you will keep it.  Let your ears be the judge.  Oh, and I guarantee you will not get special graphs etc done by other companies (unless they have them ready to hand and are willing to show) so you can't really make a true objective purchase in the way that you would like.  At some point in time you need to take a risk and choose..... PERIOD ... but a 30 day money back makes it a no-brainer, unless you live outside North America....!

[elg2001]

Hi,
I hope I didn't come off as heavy handed, although that's how it seems from your responses. To put it simply, the audio hardware industry is mostly smoke and mirrors. After much searching and asking and prodding, anyone who had put their hands on something from CIAudio was exstatic about its performance, so I started considering their products. However, since I've had really BAD experiences with $500+ audio hardware, I was extremely skeptical to spend that much on such a small part of the audio chain.

I realize that providing graphs is alot of work, and I REALLY APPRECIATE you doing that for me! However, I assumed that you already had these measurements for marketing purposes. I wasn't aware that you operated without them. Again, I hope I didn't come off as too demanding, but I'm sure you can understand that spending $600+ on ANYTHING can be quite a stretch for some people. However, I'm a strong believer in buying the best the first time, as long as it will last a long time. A DAC should do just that, so I'm strongly considering purchasing it.

I didn't realize you have a 30-day money back guarantee, but that's definetely a nice plus. Maybe you should make that more apparent on your website? That could be a huge selling point for you in the future.

At this point, I really have only one more question: will there be a revised version of the VDA•2 released anytime soon? How about a VDA•3?

Dusty, thanks again for being such a trooper. I know I'm extremely demanding, and I appreciate your help thus far.

[kkc]

elg2001, I don't think you are being heavy handed, but I do think you are approaching your selection from the wrong perspective.  The last few months I spent reviewing a bunch of poweramps, preamps and integrateds.  My brother told me to just get a 800usd integrated and be happy.  well I did, I also got the EISA award winning Marantz integrated and then I went further and tried out a bunch of more expensive Class D and Class A amps - TACT/Lyngdorf, NuForce, Rotel, QUAD, Benchmark (DAC).  I won't bother mentioning the cheaper makes and I did not try the really expensive stuff because I would never buy that.  Some of these units are reputed to have really excellent graphs (magazine reviews).  However what made the choice was my listening and not the graphs.   Each amp was different in a way that you cannot interpret from the graphs.  Listening is not an objective experience - not if you are enjoying listening to the music, in which case its definitely an emotional experience. 

 

[CIAudio]

I realize that providing graphs is alot of work, and I REALLY APPRECIATE you doing that for me!  However, I assumed that you already had these measurements for marketing purposes. I wasn't aware that you operated without them. Again, I hope I didn't come off as too demanding, but I'm sure you can understand that spending $600+ on ANYTHING can be quite a stretch for some people. However, I'm a strong believer in buying the best the first time, as long as it will last a long time. A DAC should do just that, so I'm strongly considering purchasing it.

As mentioned before, we only use measurements to insure consistency when doing production testing. Some companies use them as marketing tools, but we don't think they are useful in knowing what something sounds like.

I didn't realize you have a 30-day money back guarantee, but that's definetely a nice plus. Maybe you should make that more apparent on your website? That could be a huge selling point for you in the future.

It is talked about on our website...
There is a catch...there is a 10% restocking fee if you decide to return the gear. This is because we cannot sell the returned gear as new.

At this point, I really have only one more question: will there be a revised version of the VDA•2 released anytime soon? How about a VDA•3?

No plans for VDA•3 at this time...the PCM1792/1794 are still the state of the art in DAC IC's.