[Russell Dawkins]

Phil, just re-reading your original post and the word "rich" jumps out.

Re-thinking my last post, I wouldn't be surprise if a pair of Grado SR225s would do it for you as Aerius suggests.

There is quite a consistent "house sound" to Grados and I remember it as being appealing in the same way early 70s JBL loudspeakers were appealing - obviously not reference class in terms of timbre but great to crank up - they would play loud without distortion and were much more FUN than most other speakers.

They could also be described as rich.

[jon_010101]

There is quite a consistent "house sound" to Grados and I remember it as being appealing in the same way early 70s JBL loudspeakers were appealing - obviously not reference class in terms of timbre but great to crank up - they would play loud without distortion and were much more FUN than most other speakers.

I totally agree.  Great big, friendly, sound -- although not at all neutral.  More fun than Senns.  I just don't listen to mine much due to the open design (usually need isolation -- Shure E3s).  Phil, if you want a pair of 225s, PM me 

[PhilNYC]

Thanks for all the input guys!  Based on what I've read, I'm surprised to hear that the DT880's are likely not what I'm looking for (although as always, I guess I'll have to try them out).  And from your feedback as well as my own experiences with Sennheisers, I'm pretty sure they're not my cup of tea except for maybe the HD595.  AKG also sounds like something i should try.

Are the Grado 225's a big upgrade over the 125's?  From the description, the only real difference is in the soundstaging, which doesn't seem like much for a pair of headphones...

[Canyoneagle]

I'll put my vote in for the AKG K-701's, which are my current favorite (previous: Grado 80's, Senn HD280, Senn HD 565 Ovation, Audio Technica ATH 911, ATH 611, numerous mid-range Sony, JVC, Kenwood, etc).
I haven't tried 'em with toobs, but I understand that they are quite a good match.

To my ears, my K-701's have an open, airy sound with a buttery smoothness (after they've had 100-200 hours) that I find very pleasing.  They aren't as bassy as most Senn's, and (IMO) not as clinical as the Grados.  Vocals are very clean and enticing, and instruments are presented with excellent tonality.  Also, these 'phones are without a doubt the most comfortable cans I've ever used (or tried).

I've also heard very good things about the Audio Technica 1000's but have not listened to them myself.
As someone else mentioned, Grado's can be a love or hate experience.  I can appreciate their sound, and have demoed some of their higher end models, but found them uncomfortable and fatiguing (to me).

Your budget gets you into several great options.  I've heard/read some great reviews of some of the Beyers, but have no personal experience there.

Good luck on your search!
You might pose some questions over at head-fi to see if any of the 'phone junkies can elaborate.

Warmly,
Michael

[PhilNYC]

You might pose some questions over at head-fi to see if any of the 'phone junkies can elaborate.

I know...but I'm trying to take "baby steps" before getting into the fray...   I've been in touch with a couple of Head-fi.org guys (including immtbiker, who is also part of our NY Audio Rave)...

Thanks for the input!

[Dmason]

Is there any concensus on what might sound great using a 3 watt triode amp as a headamp? Smoooth and relaxing, with good depth and separation, 3D with orchestral music, would be what I would look for. Sorry to jack the thread but I am in the same boat here...

[Canyoneagle]

Yep, know what ya mean about the fray over at head-fi....  

From my experience, most of the discussion is civil, but it can be difficult to wade through the many divergent opinions (unlike here  ).

Best o' luck!
-M

[Russell Dawkins]

Is there any concensus on what might sound great using a 3 watt triode amp as a headamp? Smoooth and relaxing, with good depth and separation, 3D with orchestral music, would be what I would look for. Sorry to jack the thread but I am in the same boat here...

I would say you are describing AKG 701s, which would be my favorite affordable over-the-ear 'phone. Very comfortable and open feeling/sounding. I think the missing bass which is often mentioned in reference to these is just missing bloat - I think the bass sounds great, but I like natural, articulate bass.

I recommended the Grados above because that's my read of what Phil is looking for.

The 701s would be more to my taste.

The Etymotic Research ER4Ps I mentioned above would be my idea of an in-the-ear equivalent to the 701s, and better all round, just not as convenient and comfortable.

[aerius]

Is there any concensus on what might sound great using a 3 watt triode amp as a headamp? Smoooth and relaxing, with good depth and separation, 3D with orchestral music, would be what I would look for. Sorry to jack the thread but I am in the same boat here...

The AKG K340, snag one on ebay and send it off to Headphile for the modifications package.  However there are some reservations, K340's have been discontinued for many years and the ones going up for sale may not be in the best condition.  There are also several distinctly different sounding versions from different production runs, you can't tell which is which unless they're taken apart.  The version with less bass is pretty easy to work with, the one with loads of bass is a serious pain in the butt, my luck being what it is the latter is what I ended up with.

But once you get it sounding right and put your amp to the sucker, it's one of the best headphones around.  Like the Grado, it ain't "neutral" like a K701 or the old Grado HP-1000's, there's an emphasis on the midrange which is on the warm & lush side.  In terms of depth, separation, and a 3D soundstage it's about the best out there other than a Stax or K1000, the K701 can match it in width but not depth & height.

If you don't want to deal with all these issues I'd recommend going after the K501, it's discontinued as well but not nearly as much of a hassle to deal with as the K340.  It has a similar midrange, smooth & relaxing, maybe a little too laid back, and not as detailed & refined as the K340.  Same big soundstage, but the imaging isn't quite as precise and it puts you a few rows further back in the virtual concert hall.  It still has the magic AKG midrange of old while to me the K701 doesn't have the magic.  To broadly generalize and make some stereotypes, if you like the magic single-ended triode sound, get the K501, if you favour modern neutral solidstate sound, the K701 is probably more to your liking.

[BradJudy]

I would say you are describing AKG 701s, which would be my favorite affordable over-the-ear 'phone.

Affordable?  The k701's list at $450, there are only a handful of headphones that list for more than that.  Of course, they can be had for under $300, so it fits Phil's need. 

The k701 is the other headphone on my list (along with the DT880) that I'd like to try out. 

[PhilNYC]

Had a chance to demo a few headphones at the NY Rave at Levi's this past weekend, paired with my Cayin HA-1A amp and CDT-17A cd player.  Posted my thoughts in that thread, but thought I'd re-post them here in the context of my original inquiry:

We had the Grado SR60, the AKG701, the Sennheiser 650, and my own Shure e3C earbuds.  Each definitely had its strengths and weaknesses.  I was surprised at how much I liked the Sennheisers given how underwhelmed I've been with them in the past, noting that this was the first time I tried them with a dedicated headphone amp (they supposedly need a lot of power to drive them properly).  The Grado SR60 was definitely "great for the price", slightly outclassed by the others, but also less than a 1/3rd of the price of the next lowest price headphones (the Shures); unfortunately, the Grados just weren't very comfortable to my ears.  My Shure e3C earbuds held their own on some music, but sounded a bit shouty on others.  Of these, I think the AKG701 would be the most satisfying to me for long-term listening...great balance, the best imaging and very good soundstaging. 

I did also manage to get ahold of a pair of Beyer DT880 (latest version) to try out.  Not a lot of hours on them, so I'm going to run them a couple of days before listening to them critically....

[Frihed91]

K-701s are low impedance.  If you are using an OTL or other amp that acts like a current device, the levels to which you can drive headphones are directly related to impedance.  If it has an output transformer (acts like voltage device) , you won't have this problem.

[PhilNYC]

K-701s are low impedance.  If you are using an OTL or other amp that acts like a current device, the levels to which you can drive headphones are directly related to impedance.  If it has an output transformer (acts like voltage device) , you won't have this problem.

Here are the specs of the Cayin HA-1A headphone amp I'm using:

◆Two 6п14пs are used for class A S.E. amplification.
◆The toroid power transformer and EI audio transformer are specially manufactured for CAYIN HA-1A by applying our unique workmanship, which has low magnetic leakage, wide frequency response and low impedance.
◆One 12AX7 and one 12AU7 are used in the preamplifier.
◆Can use as one high quality preamplifier (14dB).
◆All-vacuum tube design, all hand-made. 
 
Headphone
●Input impedance:22KΩ
●Output impedance:6Ω-300Ω
●Power output:1W×2（Triode RMS）
●Input sensitivity:320mV
●Frequency response:25Hz-30kHz
●THD:1%
●S/N ratio:88dB
●Channel balance:＜0.5dB

Integrated amplifier
●Input impedance:22KΩ
●Output impedance:8Ω
●Power output:1.2W×2（RMS, Triode）
2.2W×2（RMS, Ultralinear）
●Input sensitivity:320mV
●Frequency response:25Hz-30kHz
●THD:2%
●S/N ratio:85dB
●Channel balance:＜0.5dB

Preamplifier
●Input impedance:22KΩ
●Frequency response:15Hz-40kHz
●THD:0.8%
●Output:2000mV (Max 4000mV)
●S/N ratio:82dB
●Total gain:14dB

Amplifier
●Power requirement:AC220V 50-60Hz
●Weight: 7kg
●Dimension:130(w)×300(d)×230(h)mm
●Power consumption:60W

[Frihed91]

Then the low impedance of the phones should not be a problem.  By the way DT-880s are NOT colored and they ARE: very detailed and somewhat bright.  However, if you have any high frequency hearing loss you may not hear this brightness and it actually helps in that case. 

Have you heard the BC headamp, SBH, yet? 

[PhilNYC]

The Cayin also does have an impedance selector, so yes, it has no trouble driving the AKG701 or other headphones. 

I've been listing to the Beyer DT880 this morning and I don't find them overly detailed or bright at all.  Very balanced, good imaging and openness, accurate bass.  In fact, I think I may have found the winner of my search...!

Have not heard the SBH yet, but I have no doubt it is great... (I went with the Cayin because I wanted to go tubes)

[PhilNYC]

Ok, so it's official...I've chosen to go with the Beyerdynamic DT880.  This based on the eval of the Grado, Senns, and AKG at the last Rave at Levi's, plus some additional time today with the Senn HD650.  A summary of what I thought of each set I tried:

Grado SR60: Super value at $69, although definitely a step below the others.  Easy decision not to go with them, however, because they were very uncomfortable.

Sennheiser HD650:  Nice tone, good bass, but a little dark and closed in relative to the AKG and Beyer.  Fit over the ears wasn't uncomfortable, but relative to the Beyer, they felt a little tight.

AKG701:  Best soundstage and imaging overall with good (although somewhat lean) tone.  Nothing to complain about, but the most expensive of the bunch.  Also the biggest set of the group.

Beyer DT880:   Excellent combination of a natural, balanced tone with good spacial qualities and imaging.  Available for about $100 less than the AKG701, but very close in performance.  Also, hands down the most comfortable of the bunch...very light, almost like you're not wearing headphones when compared with the Sennheisers.

Shure e3C:  Loved them before undertaking this journey.  After spending time with the DT880, the eC3's sound a little bit shouty on a lot of recordings.  On more forgiving recordings, they have beautiful tone.  Ear buds are also not the most comfortable (which is what led me to this whole thing).

Thanks all for your input!

[jrdcesq]

Phil:

Thanks for this thread. I was looking for $300ish headphones too. Everyone's advice really helped, but what helped even more is that a knew your taste in equipment. So your thoughts with my experiences helped me pick. I went with the AKGs because I did like the balance better and knew you liked a brighter sound than me so the Beyers probably weren't right.

P.S. I was surprised you liked the Sennheisers at all. They are too laid back for me and I like that sound much better than you.

John

[PhilNYC]

I went with the AKGs because I did like the balance better and knew you liked a brighter sound than me so the Beyers probably weren't right.

What're you trying to say, John?

I was surprised you liked the Sennheisers at all. They are too laid back for me and I like that sound much better than you

Prior to this whole search, my only experiences with Sennheisers were using them without a headphone amp (eg. with an iPod/discman, headphone jack on an AV receiver, etc).  And in all of those cases, I found them to be too laid back for my taste.  But with the Cayin headphone amp, I didn't find them laid-back at all...they weren't forward by any means, but I found them to be fuller-sounding than I had in the past.  So the lesson learned seems to be that they need a good headphone amp to drive them (it seems like all of these headphones do).

Btw - I'll say one thing about my taste as far as "live" vs. "laid-back"...to me, it all depends on the type of music.  Listening to Van Halen or John Scofield on a laid-back system sucks...but listening to Marvin Gaye or Bernadette Peters on a live system also doesn't seem right.  If I had to sum up what I like, I think it's a combination of "warmth" and "liveliness".  But it's a hard sound to achieve withouth "brightness" (which I actually really don't like)...

[HiFiSoundGuy]

   I have been trying out some ultrasone proline 2500 headphones and I like these headphones better than any speaker I have ever heard! They talk about these headphones here  http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=207948

[PhilNYC]

FYI - just for fun, I picked up a pair of Grado SR80 headphones...and for the money ($95), the sound quality is superb.  The Beyer DT880 still has a more refined sound and are FAR more comfortable, but for pure sound quality, the SR80 is pretty darn nice...