Battery powered

BrianM · « **on:** 10 Jan 2007, 08:31 pm »

In reference to the preamp gongos replaced his T8 with (a battery powered one), and respecting his opinion that it (presumably) sounds better to him...is battery power another gimmick? I know not a thing about this subgenre of components, but the main premise seems to be that it is, you know, quieter power. So I guess if you think "power conditioning" is a non-starter you're likely to think a battery powered component is, too.

Unless there are other benefits/tradeoffs, that is? Can anyone comment? Is this a concept that Van Alstine ever considered & discarded? Because -- as a concept -- it sounds pretty cool...but how does it figure in with the fact that your other stuff *isn't* battery powered, and your preamp will be plugged into that stuff? Is a completely battery powered hifi system feasible? Teach me.

Toka · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 08:37 pm »

I can't speak with any real authority on the merits of battery power (other than what I have heard is *very* quiet indeed). But it *is* possible to get a full system that is completely off the grid (save for a turntable, at least, there isn't one that I am aware of yet...seems possible though). Red Wine Audio (they have a circle here) makes battery-powered amps, and can mod Olive transports to be the same, as well as the Lehmann Black Cube phono pre. There are battery-powered DACs around too. So, it is possible...and it is quiet. But I can't consider myself sold on the matter.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 08:38 pm »

If you want a purely unbiased discussion of this topic, it would be better to post outside a manufacturer's circle.

Steve Eddy · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 08:44 pm »

Quote from: Toka on 10 Jan 2007, 08:37 pm

But it *is* possible to get a full system that is completely off the grid (save for a turntable, at least, there isn't one that I am aware of yet...seems possible though).

Redpoint Audio's turntables use DC motors which are battery powered.

se

Toka · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 08:45 pm »

Ah, well there you go!

Thanks Steve.

gongos · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 08:46 pm »

Quote from: BrianM on 10 Jan 2007, 08:31 pm

In reference to the preamp gongos replaced his T8 with (a battery powered one), and respecting his opinion that it (presumably) sounds better to him...is battery power another gimmick? I know not a thing about this subgenre of components, but the main premise seems to be that it is, you know, quieter power. So I guess if you think "power conditioning" is a non-starter you're likely to think a battery powered component is, too.

Unless there are other benefits/tradeoffs, that is? Can anyone comment? Is this a concept that Van Alstine ever considered & discarded? Because -- as a concept -- it sounds pretty cool...but how does it figure in with the fact that your other stuff *isn't* battery powered, and your preamp will be plugged into that stuff? Is a completely battery powered hifi system feasible? Teach me.

The pre I bought is not battery powered.

Steve Eddy · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 08:47 pm »

Quote from: Toka on 10 Jan 2007, 08:45 pm

Ah, well there you go! Thanks Steve.

You're welcome. And Marbles has added another to the list.

There is hope after all.

se

Steve Eddy · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 08:50 pm »

Now, if you REALLY want to get off the grid (the batteries still need to be charged), ya can't beat good ol' human power.

se

Wayner · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 10:50 pm »

If you replace the standard "Neveready" batteries with NiMH, does the sound improve?

W

WEEZ · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 11:15 pm »

I've often wondered if batteries store dirty power from the AC line, or if they clean it up...

miklorsmith · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Jan 2007, 11:28 pm »

I'm a big believer in battery power, as are many folks. I won't get into an involved discussion of it in a manufacturer's circle who offers no battery powered products.

Wayner · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Jan 2007, 12:13 am »

If I may chime in here, the plus is that if you use convenience outlets (120vac), you don't need to replace batteries. The minus is there isn't any, if you design 120vac equipment properly, you don't need any stinkin batteries. Besides, batteries are wasteful because they wear out. They are also not cheap. I've had some guitar stomp boxes that were noisier than hell that ran on batteries, so that doesn't mean that that type of power supply is quite either. It always boils down to the proper execution of circuits in the topography of a design. Battery power is popular because manufacturers can bypass UL certification saving lots of do-ray-me. but they shed the cost to their customers who have to continuously source or regenerate batteries.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Jan 2007, 12:34 am »

Quote

I've had some guitar stomp boxes that were noisier than hell that ran on batteries, so that doesn't mean that that type of power supply is quite either. It always boils down to the proper execution of circuits in the topography of a design.

Agreed, about the noise factor. But, they do sound better with batteries. I noticed this over twenty years ago when I had to stop using batteries and get a more convenient power supply. The only reason I did was for convenience and reliability when I was on the road a lot. But I took a performance hit in my sound that used to baffle and frustrate me. And don't even get me started on whether I thought I heard a difference! I lived and breathed playing, and knew my sound better than anything else in the world. Even the guys in the band would comment on how my sound wasn't quite as round as before and that it was edgier and not as musical. They didn't know I had switched to the AC power supplies.

I thought it might be a voltage mismatch or something. It wasn't. They were designed by the same manufacturer specifically for what I was using.

Cheers

Daygloworange · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Jan 2007, 02:25 am »

I wasn't into drugs, and never played under the influence. I had been known to party after the show with a few beer though

, but as far as playing on stage, always stone cold sober.

Cheers

dB Cooper · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Jan 2007, 03:46 pm »

Quote from: Daygloworange on 11 Jan 2007, 02:25 am

I wasn't into drugs, and never played under the influence. I had been known to party after the show with a few beer though , but as far as playing on stage, always stone cold sober.

Cheers

That is good... Otherwise this can happen!

avahifi · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Jan 2007, 03:53 pm »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that typical batteries have a relatively high output impedance, certainly not less than one ohm output impedance broadband of our current active high voltage analog power supply designs. Our isolated active power supplies, one for each half of each tube used, are a simple configuration of a zener diode controlled power mos-fet device. This provides essentially unlimited stable power supply bandwidth and does wonders for the musicality.

Battery power, fed into the typical tired old pi-network passive supplies, is not going to solve a thing. Also, I am kind of wondering how battery power is going to cleanly supply isolated multiple near 300V DC supplies needed for proper vacuum tube operation. Battery powered heater supplies? Gee how long can you play with batteries when the tubes need 600 mA each for proper heater operation. I don't think the energizer bunny will be up to the task.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Steve Eddy · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Jan 2007, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: avahifi on 11 Jan 2007, 03:53 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that typical batteries have a relatively high output impedance, certainly not less than one ohm output impedance broadband of our current active high voltage analog power supply designs.

Not sure what you mean by "typical batteries" but as far as SLAs are concerned, while I haven't seen any broadband measurements, at 1kHz (which is the frequency at which manufacturers rate internal impedance), it's quite low, though it depends on the battery's capacity. Larger capacity batteries will have a lower internal impedance than smaller capacity batteries.

For example, a Panasonic 12 volt, 1.3Ah battery has a rated internal impedance of 90 milliohms, and a 12 volt, 33Ah battery has a rated internal impedance of just 7 milliohms.

If you want to be assured of broadband, low impedance, you can always add some reservoir/bypass capacitance.

Quote

Battery power, fed into the typical tired old pi-network passive supplies, is not going to solve a thing.

I dunno. I guess it depends on what one considers a problem.

Personally I consider the AC line, the power transformer, the bridge rectifier and the noise they produce along with 120 Hz ripple on the "DC" side to be a problem. An unnecessary evil if you will. I'd prefer they not be there in the first place than having to try and deal with it.

Quote

Also, I am kind of wondering how battery power is going to cleanly supply isolated multiple near 300V DC supplies needed for proper vacuum tube operation.

Near as I can tell, your isolation comes from the multiple active regulators you use, not from the main supply, in which case I don't see that isolation has anything particularly to do with whether the main supply is an AC supply or a battery supply.

As for near 300 volts, that can be done with batteries and some have done it, though admittedly it would be expensive and recharging would be something of a nightmare so there are good arguments against batteries for high voltages.

Quote

Battery powered heater supplies? Gee how long can you play with batteries when the tubes need 600 mA each for proper heater operation. I don't think the energizer bunny will be up to the task.

Nah. A high capacity 6 volt SLA would let you run the filaments all day. 300 volts is a nightmare, but 6 volts is a piece of cake.

se

avahifi · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Jan 2007, 04:18 pm »

Hey Marbles, suggest searches for competitive products (even if they really are no competition

) somewhere else than in the AVA circle please.

Frank

miklorsmith · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Jan 2007, 05:07 pm »

And now we have come full circle. Thanks, Frank.

avahifi · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Jan 2007, 07:49 pm »

Lets see, 1 percent tolerance precision metal film resistors cost about 5 cents each in quantity. So if there is one hundred of them in a component, that accounts for $5.00 of the cost. How it all adds up!

I could also note that "built of all military grade parts" is not a very good recommendation. The radio in an army Humvee is built of "all military grade parts", and it sounds terrible!

My suspicion regarding the pricing of $23,000 components is that someone wanted to make at least $22,000 profit and somebody else was stupid enough to buy into that.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine